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8 year old Great Pyrenees just diagnosed
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Colorado
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25 September 2023 - 7:58 pm
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Eustacia,

ugh I am so incredibly sorry, I felt anxious just reading it I can't imagine how it was for you to go through that, and then to get that look from Honor makes my heart drop. I agree with everyone that I also don't think Honor has lost his trust in you, he's probably as frustrated with the situation as you are because he's uncomfortable, all these strangers are poking at him, and his person (you) is really stressed out and he probably doesn't know why... it makes sense that he is doing what he can to make it stop. I wish we could explain to them why we are doing what we are doing, or better yet ask them what they would want.

I'm going to push back a little on what Michael said where he is astounded by the people who choose to do nothing when they get the diagnosis.  There's a million reasons why people choose not to pursue treatment, and I doubt any of them have anything to do with them not caring/loving their dogs. You followed Ellie's story so you know that we only got 4 months from diagnosis to it spreading to her spine.  I have forgiven myself and made peace with the decisions I made I made them with the best of intentions and with no crystal ball, but if hindsight was 20/20 I know I wouldn't have done any chemo, and I honestly don't know if I would have even done the amputation.  I have absolutely no regrets about not doing Palladia, even if I can convince myself she would have gotten more time- the 30 days I got with her where we didn't have a single vet appointment or any drugs it was a night and day difference and I cherish those days so much. If I have another dog who gets osteosarcoma (lord help me I hope not) I will have a hard decision on how to proceed based off what I went through with Ellie.

We can't tell you what to do, or what's best for you and Honor, I wish I knew I would tell you in a heart beat to help you feel less anxious about all these unknowns. It does sound like Honor is putting down his boundaries pretty clear that the less vet appointments the better, that's one reason I didn't do Palladia with Ellie, because it meant more appointments and she was so over it. I know you can't completely avoid vet appointments, so my only real advice is to maybe do some muzzle training with Honor? maybe after a few days to let him relax, but a muzzle doesn't have to be stressful, with positive reinforcement they can handle it great.  There's a bunch of tips on how to, this is one I found

New England
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26 September 2023 - 5:19 am
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I'm going to push back a little on what Michael said where he is astounded by the people who choose to do nothing when they get the diagnosis.  There's a million reasons why people choose not to pursue treatment, and I doubt any of them have anything to do with them not caring/loving their dogs.

This is a very good point.  Being able to treat your beloved pet's cancer takes time and money.  Unfortunately, not everyone has the resources for that.  It's sad, but it's reality.  Both Honor and Ophelia are extremely privileged to have humans putting in so much effort into their treatments and quality of life.

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26 September 2023 - 10:24 am
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I was so sorry to read about Honor. You have so many beings dependent on you, it must be very hard. Honor still loves you, he's just in pain and confused. Could you set an uninterrupted time each day when you could go to the lake? Even if he won't get in the van, maybe you could sit quietly together and talk about it. I know Nicky treasures these little routines and is so disappointed when i don't follow through (which happens, I'm afraid).

The Rainbow Bridge



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26 September 2023 - 10:49 am
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I'm so sorry Eustacia. Everyone here has brought up such great points. I just want to reiterate that Honor absolutely still loves and trusts you. You have a strong bond with him, it won't vanish just like that. He is aching from the surgery, and he just wants to heal. When he does, you will see your bright, happy boy back. Take things one day and one decision at a time, you can do it. sp_hearticon2

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26 September 2023 - 11:09 am
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I agree Whitney.  But some of the ones that I’m talking about were more about just acceptance and the belief that amputation isn’t possible for a large dog, and/or that chemo is used the same way in dogs as it is in humans thus making them really sick. My point is more about taking time to do some research or just taking the time to do a consult with an oncologist.  But most definitely, there are people who don’t have either the time or money to do it. 

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26 September 2023 - 11:13 am
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@Eustscia

 

here is the link. https://www.ncb.....MC8866227/

I’d consider it, but i would also be like you and not want Ophelia to deal with many more side effects or bad days caused by treating. Trust your instinct.   No one knows Honor like you do. 

Re your thought about at home euthanasia, ask a vet for a sedative ahead of time so that you can give prior to the vet arriving for the procedure. My vet did this with Ophelia’s sister a few years ago.  Though i forget the type of sedative he gave me.    

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26 September 2023 - 6:43 pm
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Whitney, right now something resembling the 30 days you got vet free and med free with Ellie while she was feeling good would be the best case scenario I could possibly hope for….better than several months with him feeling like crap from medications and being dragged to bloodwork appts. etc.  You made the right decision!  If he recovers (and it’s a very big “if” at moment), I can’t put him through anything else.  I don’t know if I’ll ever get over the regret I have over putting him through this.  He has only been going outside to go to the bathroom once a day (sometimes 24 hours).  He barely moves throughout the entire day.  When I do see him up and walking, he is weight bearing.  He isn’t panting a lot like he was prior to the procedure.  Yet, he seems really despondent and not himself at all.  The only new medication he is on since after the procedure is cephalexin (an antibiotic).   I feel like no one has given me very straight answers when it comes to the lung mets so I have no idea if what he is experiencing right now could be due to those progressing quickly, after effects of the procedure…..I just have no idea why he is like this.  All I know is that he is done.  He was so tolerant and good natured about everything I put him through.  It all made more sense when I had 10-12 months looking probable and the 20 percent chance of 2 years or more.  Two weeks at a time of chemo stomach upset or lethargy or additional vet appointments doesn’t seem as large a price to pay when you  have all that hope for possible time living a normal, great life on the other side of it.  The potential risks to potential benefits ratio is just not encouraging when it comes to trying to stall lung mets that are already this many in number and size.   I can’t very well give a dog oral chemo that is in his present physical state so I don’t think it’s even an option.  It feels like he is on the verge of dying.  His quality of life since I got him home is pretty close to zero.  If it weren’t for holding out hope that it’s still recovery related, I would have to be looking at scheduling the dreaded appointment because I’d be worried that what might come next would be even worse than losing him that way.  

The Rainbow Bridge



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26 September 2023 - 8:34 pm
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Eustacia, first I want you to know that I talked to Sally (@benny55 ... her tablet is in the hospital so she hasn't been here), and she sends all her love to you and Honor.

I'm so sorry you are going through this, I wish I could wave a wand and bring Honor's sparkle back. If you feel he is done, that he won't get better, then it's time to talk to a hospice vet about him. Only you know him best, only you can make that decision. But I think having him evaluated by a hospice vet can help you objectively find out where he is at on his own personal quality of life scale.

One more thing: remember that dogs absorb every one of our emotions. What we feel, they respond to. I know you're in a tough, very dark place right now so I'm not going to tell you to pretend to be positive and all that. But for Honor, do whatever you can to look for a glimmer of hope in every moment (I really see one with every post you make, like "He isn’t panting a lot like he was prior to the procedure." in your previous post). Focus on the positives as much as you can right now. Because no matter where he is at with quality of life and the stage of this disease, he needs to know that you are seeing him for who he is deep down inside, for that loving soul of his, and not just focusing on the cancer and his health situation. When he sees that you see him, not the cancer, he will gain strength from your loving energy that you project.

I hope tomorrow is better. Please let us know.

Colorado
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27 September 2023 - 4:13 pm
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Eustacia,

I can only loudly and adamantly second what Jerry send so eloquently about how our dogs absorb our emotions. We also look at them through the glasses of whatever emotion we are currently experiencing. What I'm hearing is the surgery didn't have the expected results (at least not on the expected timeline) and you are blaming yourself for Honor not feeling good.  It sounds like you take on a lot of responsibility and have a lot of beings (dogs/kids etc) dependent on you, so if anything goes awry it's on you to fix, and if it's not fixed it's easy for you to blame yourself. If this has a kernel of truth I just want to reiterate that none of this is your fault, every single decision you have made has been to help Honor and came from a place of love and compassion.  Every decision you have made was the best you could do with the information you had. Everything happening right now is the cancers fault, but you can't beat up cancer which is really lame (business idea, make a cancer punching bag).

With all that said I want to point out some positives I see.  Honor is weight bearing!! on 4 legs!!  He is indeed going potty and going potty outside. since I haven't seen anything otherwise it sounds like he doesn't have an upset stomach and is eating pretty well after surgery. He's not panting, that's a pretty clear indicator that he's in less pain than before. 

I empathize with the not getting straight answers, I can only assume it's because they really don't know for sure.  I would doubt it's anything to do with the lung mets at this point (that's a very guarded opinion, please take it with a monumental grain of salt) because I learned that you only even start to feel the affects of diminishing lung capacity when you get to 65% lung capacity, there's also no pain receptors in the lungs so the tumor doesn't hurt like it does in the bone.

I hope this helps to be a little more kind to yourself, which will directly impact Honor too. You two are in my thoughts sp_hearticon2sp_hearticon2

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27 September 2023 - 8:43 pm
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Jerry,

That is a good point about dogs picking up on our emotions and I haven’t been great at moderating mine this past week.  Before I forget, I appreciate so much that Sally was thinking of Honor and I while she is in hospital. Hope she is ok!

Whitney,

That had far more than a kernel of truth in it.  Rationally, I do know it’s not my fault he has cancer or the things that have happened along the way when I’ve tried to help….but very hard to be rational 🙁. 

I can make a little more positive report today.  He really pepped up for a bit this afternoon and went outside twice today to relieve himself.  I also managed to get the bandages off alone with no issues.  Now his Dr wants sutures uncovered so unfortunately cone will have to be 24/7 for a week until sutures come out. He ate really well tonight.  So far, we’ve been lucky and no stomach issues…surprisingly because he is on antibiotics 3 times a day.  His oncologist is just going to do a phone consult with me Fri  but agreed she wouldn’t give him anything under circumstances and wouldn’t have recommended IV chemo or oral chemo for him.  She looked at his radiographs and said she would not say it’s advanced stage right now but more like moderate. 

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30 September 2023 - 3:33 pm
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Honor update:  Now 9 days past procedure.  

Unfortunately, after I took the bandages off, I’ve had to be more diligent with the cone because the sutures are in easy reach and, although he hasn’t shown too much interest, I was warned that he is very high risk for infection so to make sure he doesn’t lick at them.  It’s one of the soft cones but it still makes him even more depressed so I take it off and sit or lay right next to him for hours without doing anything else as I can’t risk getting distracted.   Needless to say, my house is a complete disaster zone at this point, but I have limited time with Honor and the rest of my life to do chores. When I’m laying down with him, he will put his paws around my neck and push his face into mine and I just wish I could freeze time and stay there forever.  

He still seems very lethargic.  He can walk and put some weight down but I can’t say things look any better yet than before we did the procedure.  There is still some swelling and the Dr. said she had to scrape against the inner layer of the bone (which is the most painful layer and why bone cancer is so painful) to get the dead tumor out so they had room to put the cement in and fill the micro fracture… or something to that effect.  

Of course, the difficulty is not knowing how much of the lethargy is due to lung mets and how much is due to recovery.  His oncologist did a phone consult with me.  She suggested one take at home medication (forget the name but begins with a “v”) that she has had some success with for lung mets without seeing side effects, but we aren’t at the point of being able to do anything at all and I am not feeling super hopeful that we will be.   She would also be able to just provide strict palliative care…..prednisone, hydrocodone etc. to deal with symptoms as they arise but I’d have to be able to get him there.  I have an appt. with a holistic vet 5 minutes away on Thurs. and she is willing to get his sutures out while there so I can try to minimize/consolidate appts.    Just hoping I can actually get him out to the minivan, which we extended the rental on, and over there for a set appt time.  It’s not a situation where he will just get up when I tell him it’s time to go and take his leash out like in the past.  He’s pretty much only been getting up when he needs to go outside to relieve himself.  I have to put his food and water in front of him to have while he is laying down.  Having the mobile vet come over to take the sutures out would be an absolute last resort that I would like to avoid because, after last time, they would require me to give him 3 different sedation meds at very high doses and there is absolutely no way I can see safely doing that to him in his current state.

At this point, my greatest wish is that his leg would improve enough that we could make a some trips to the lake or he could be able to take a few little walks down the street before we have to say goodbye due to the lung mets causing too many symptoms.  And, of course, I am worried about a crisis since I’m not currently having him monitored by a vet and I’ve seen this cancer take some unexpected turns.  

New England
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30 September 2023 - 4:13 pm
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When I’m laying down with him, he will put his paws around my neck and push his face into mine and I just wish I could freeze time and stay there forever.

This sounds really special.

There is also a lot of wisdom in putting off chores so you can spend time with Honor.

The Rainbow Bridge



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30 September 2023 - 10:54 pm
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Eustacia, I think that being able to focus on him is such a gift. I'm also going to bet that he is just as worried about you. 

I'm sure his leg is still really achy, it's no wonder that he's just so tired. The lung mets may or may not be part of that behavior, it's hard to tell. How is his appetite? Many dogs will lose it when the mets start getting really big and causing too much tiredness. Is he eating OK once his food is in front of him?

Have you tried putting his food and water within eyesight so he can see them, and try to get up and get to them on his own? 

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1 October 2023 - 12:13 pm
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Eustacia, how about call a friend, get a contact for a good, quiet, cleaning person (not a crew, quiet and honest more important than skill) and just chalk the slight expense up to Honor's illness. Really, you will feel much better and thus so will Honor.

The Rainbow Bridge



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1 October 2023 - 3:57 pm
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aww that's such a nice suggestion Suzanne. Having a cleaned house seems like little thing but it makes a huge difference in times like this.

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