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please help! second guessing decision
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St. Louis, MO
Member Since:
16 September 2011
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5 April 2012 - 8:16 pm
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I'm so sorry that you have to go through this now.

Your are absolutely correct that it is your decision and your decision only.  This may sound weird...but have you talked to Percy?  Even though he won't answer you back with words, he may send you signs as to what he wants.  Look into his eyes, open your heart and talk to him.  Tell him what he already knows....how much you love him, how brave he is, and then let him know that it is ok if he is tired of fighting...be open to what he has to "say". 

Wishing you strength, peace and courage.  Sending positive thoughts and prayers.

Hugs and chocolate labby kisses,

Ellen & Charley

Charley's Blog:  CHOCOLATE KISSES


DOB: 3-29-08, male chocolate lab  
Dx: OSA L proximal humerus 10-19-10

Amputation: L front leg & scapula 10-28-10

Chemo: 5 rounds of Carboplatin

Video (12 weeks post amp):Tripaw Charley Playing

♥♥♥ Lots of supplements and love!!! ♥♥♥

In your heart, where I belong.
Member Since:
9 February 2011
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5 April 2012 - 8:21 pm
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I can answer your questions; some folks might not want to read any further because I will write down what the private cremation experience was like, from the time my dog died until the cremation was done. And to answer your questions, this will be long.

I had to give some thought to exactly how it happened since it will be 5 years in July (some of what I said earlier was slightly inaccurate). And this will answer your stroke questions, too. Belle had spinal myelopathy for years, so she gradually lost her rear, basically. For a few years she was wobbly but ok, then it got worse. Her last 6 months were what I described earlier. She had no bowel control; she laid on a bed with a baby absorbent pad and towels. The poop would just fall out and we'd clean it up, change the pad, do a bunch of laundry. For some reason urine is different with this disorder. But when Belle couldn't even get up on her own anymore, my husband would carry her outside cradled like an infant. She'd prop up against us and we'd hang onto her and she would pee. Then it got worse and she would pee on the pads. I had to invest a small fortune in waterless dog shampoo to keep her from getting urine scald. This is when the arguing over quality of life began. And it continued because Belle would perk up and wag and play with a toy if we brought it to her. I remember thinking "dammit--there is no way she's happy." But she seemed to be, much of the time.

Belle wasted away. She had little appetite and was very thin. Her adult weight was about 76 pounds; when she died, she was about 55. I was able to carry her outside at that point. And that's when she had her stroke. I took her out to pee. I propped her against me as usual and had to press on her bladder to get her started (another thing I left out, the last month or so of her life). She peed and was looking around, taking in the world. Then suddenly I thought she was having a seizure--and then I just knew what it was. She bobbed her head up and down vigorously and often. It was deliberate. She could no longer hold her head up and it was obvious she was trying to get it up. She failed.

Of course I was on the ground in seconds with her. Her back feet, already unstable and turning under due to the myelopathy, turned under even more. Like spasticity--her tendons and ligaments were pulling her feet under rigidly. She couldn't even pretend to stand any longer, and she was trying desperately. She just fought to get that head up and stay on her feet.

I picked her up and brought her in to her bed. She couldn't sit up. She was on her side, like always, but she couldn't stay upright. Couldn't lift her head up. And I think she may have had her sight impacted because she acted like she couldn't see clearly. I don't think she was blind, but she may have lost sight in one eye. 

We moved her bed so that she was able to be propped against a wall. That helped. She didn't seem to be in any pain but she was anxious. We watched her for a little while. (I called the vet and he confirmed it certainly sounded like a stroke. He said there was nothing he could do and she would not get better.) She did not improve. This happened in the afternoon. Then she started howling that night. She'd always been a singer but she was doing that constant howl and I was undone. I doped her up on leftover pain meds and stayed with her till morning. I don't think she hurt. She never trembled or shook like from pain. I think she was wigged out. The howling didn't last long. Once she was relaxed from the drugs (I don't even remember what it was but something doggie for pain), she was fine. I needed therapy. 

I called the vet the next morning and loaded her into the car. And by the way, she seemed content. Still couldn't sit up but didn't seem at all uncomfortable or unhappy. In fact, she ate a little food. I couldn't believe she would eat, but I hand fed her canned food and she ate. But there was no way I was going to continue the farce (as I saw it) of pretending this was a good way to live. My husband finally agreed. 

After Belle left me in the back of the car, I drove her home. I had 2 other dogs (one of them Dakota, my tripawd) and let them see her. They were satisfied and never looked back, never seemed to miss her. I believe that made a difference. I called the cremation place and they said they couldn't do the cremation till the next day but they wanted me to bring her body to them. They would put her in a very cold refrigeration unit overnight. And that process helped me. I drove her down the hill to them, wrapped in her blue blanket. They met me outside with a gurney and asked if I wanted to put her on it or have them do it. I told them I wanted to do as much as I was allowed. So I loaded her and pushed her inside and put her into the fridge. It was similar to a chest freezer. She was the only animal in it. She stayed wrapped in her blanket. I pretty much said my goodbyes then.

I drove home and then went back the next day at the time they told me to come. Gurney appeared, fridge was opened, a nice guy brought her out (it was deep and leaning way over to get her was really awkward for me) and put her on the gurney. He pushed it into a private room and told me to come out when I was ready. I think seeing her so very cold helped. It wasn't Belle any more. It was what Belle left behind. It was only half of the beauty that was Belle, and it made it easier to say goodbye and continue the process.

We wheeled the gurney into the giant creamtion facility. I was shown the various units and shown the private ones. The door was already opened and we went over to it. The nice guy said he had to put Belle into it due to regulations. I was ok with that. He was as gentle with her as my husband always was carrying her like a baby. He put her in on her side and put his hand on her head for a long moment. He asked if I was ok and I said yes. He folded up her blue blanket and handed it to me. Then he showed me the metal tag that would be around her wrist that had a number on it. That was how I would know it was Belle, even if I hadn't stayed. 

I went outside to a bench they had in a garden area and sat for awhile. I brought a book but I couldn't read. I walked around for a little while and sat some more. I went inside at one point and several employees came over to talk to me as a group. They said, "Tell us about your dog." So I did.

It took somewhere between 2 and 3 hours. I will tell you that they warned me it might take longer because Belle was so incredibly thin. The sad fact is, fat speeds things along. So Belle had no fat left to speed it along. But when it was done, things had to cool. They came and got me when it was cooling and showed me that was happening. I was always informed of everything. And when it was completely cool and they opened the door, I was very surprised. The ash pattern was like a dim shadow of my dog. The outline was there perfectly, but it was so obvious that she was completely gone from earth. It was sad, but it wasn't horrifying. It was completion. That was good for me. I watched while the nice guy collected her remains in something (I don't remember what). He went inside and came out in moments with a box. It was warm, which was almost nice. I mean, if she had to be gone, I was pleased that she was away such a short time that her remains were still warm.

I'm sorry I wrote so much. I think it's important for you, though, so you can make your decision. I can tell you that I have no regrets and am glad I could give this gift to Belle. She was with me for 15 1/2 years and she was my heart dog. The next dog that left us, Zoot (3 years ago), went to the same place. I didn't take Zoot, because I trusted these people to care for her diligently. But if I can take the next dog (likely Dakota), I will. (And of course I left out the crying.)

Belle at age 3, in her prime and glory.

From abandoned puppy to Tripawd Warrior Dude, Dakota became one of the 2011 February Furballs due to STS. Our incredibly sweet friend lived with grace and dignity till he impulsively raced over the Bridge on 12-15-12.

Dakota's thoughtful and erudite blog is at http://shari.tr.....pawds.com/

Washington
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1 February 2011
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5 April 2012 - 8:32 pm
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No matter what you end up doing, you're gonna wonder later if it was the right thing.  If you wait and Percy gets worse, you'll wish you'd done it sooner, and if you do it tomorrow, you're gonna be wondering if he would have had a few more good days.  That's just how it is with these impossible decisions.  But that being said, I wish you the strength to face the road ahead.  I know that your heart is breaking, but make these last moments together memorable in a good way.  That's the easiest way to face what is coming.  Make sure your boy is happy and comfortable...

Percy will tell you when it's time, but it's up to you to really listen to him. 

 

Sending you hugs,

Rio's momma, Micki

the Woo

~ ~ Rio ~ ~
Forever in my heart...

April 2000 – January 20, 2012
Diagnosed with Mast Cell Cancer in June 2007. Left rear leg amputated Feb. 8, 2011.
Mets discovered Aug. 31, 2011. Read more of Rio's story here.

On The Road


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24 September 2009
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5 April 2012 - 9:14 pm
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I'm so glad that you have found peace in your decision to follow your heart. I know it's such a tough call to make, but the best way to get to that point is to listen in peace and have a good conversation with Percy.

I do want you to know though, that you are not "killing" Percy when you do decide to proceed. Being able to help him along to his next journey, and free his body of the pain, is a merciful act that is compassionate and loving when our family members are hurting with no end in sight. Scheduling the act itself might seem unnatural but one reason it is good to do it this way, is that you are mentally prepared and not hastily making decisions you might regret later on. Hospice folks say that it's so much easier to prepare for this situation when your mind is clear, rather than in the midst of emotional and physical turmoil. 

My heart goes out to you right now. I hope that the days ahead are filled with lots of love, dog kisses and the soft, comforting touch of his velvety ears. 

Tripawds Founders Jim and Rene
tripawds.com | tripawds.org | bemoredog.net | triday.pet

krun15
20
5 April 2012 - 9:56 pm
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I just wanted to add something I wrote to someone else today...

 

Karen, thanks for Maggie's story.  I haven't gotten the look yet either and didn't feel right giving up.

 

I think it is important that you don't look at making the end decision as giving up. When I decided not to treat Maggie's second cancer it did seem a bit lke giving up. We had fought hard against the mast cell cancer that cost her leg, and now I decide not to do anything? What gave me some peace and clarity was the realization that when I chose not to treat the cancer I was not giving up on Maggie- I was making a decision FOR her. It may be subtle- but it makes a world of difference. I did not give up on Maggie, I made decsions that gave her the best life quality, and I let her go onto her next adventure when she was ready.

Make every moment count.

Karen and Spirit Maggie

Las Vegas, Nevada
Member Since:
14 August 2009
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6 April 2012 - 12:28 am
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A shout out to Shari for writing about your experience.  I know that couldn't have been easy.  I am glad you did because I had no idea of the process.  Thanks.  (if that's a good word to use for this subject) 

I never questioned the ashes because I found metal and screws in Comet's ashes from her TPLO knee surgery.  I highly suggest anyone that has had TPLO to request it if you desire.  Comet had two plates but I only got one.  I suspect they removed one and never assumed a dog would have two and so the second one was missed.  And now that Shari told the process it would make sense that ashes would have covered up one.

 

Micki is so right in what she said about  - you are going to question everything later on anyway.  The would have's or should have's are normal.  But those feelings are normal and they fade rather quickly UNLESS you find yourself guilt-ridden.

The only thing I would suggest again, is please don't let outside factors come into play. Do what is right for Percy and let nothing else matter.  

And please don't lose a friend that is trying to help.  You are going to need a friend.  Even if she is not saying what you want to hear, she is trying to help out of the care she has for you and even Percy.  And sometimes we can become so subjective that we can't see everything clearly.  Freinds are invaluable for this.

I just want to add one last thing...please don't lose sight of how much pain there is with cancer. 

Her Retired AvatarComet - 1999 to 2011

She departed us unexpectedly  January 23, 2011 at the age of 12 1/2.

She was born with a deformed front leg and a tripawd all of her life.

Las Vegas, Nevada
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14 August 2009
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6 April 2012 - 12:28 am
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A shout out to Shari for writing about your experience.  I know that couldn't have been easy.  I am glad you did because I had no idea of the process.  Thanks.  (if that's a good word to use for this subject) 

I never questioned the ashes because I found metal and screws in Comet's ashes from her TPLO knee surgery.  I highly suggest anyone that has had TPLO to request it if you desire.  Comet had two plates but I only got one.  I suspect they removed one and never assumed a dog would have two and so the second one was missed.  And now that Shari told the process it would make sense that ashes would have covered up one.

 

Micki is so right in what she said about  - you are going to question everything later on anyway.  The would have's or should have's are normal.  But those feelings are normal and they fade rather quickly UNLESS you find yourself guilt-ridden.

The only thing I would suggest again, is please don't let outside factors come into play. Do what is right for Percy and let nothing else matter.  

And please don't lose a friend that is trying to help.  You are going to need a friend.  Even if she is not saying what you want to hear, she is trying to help out of the care she has for you and even Percy.  And sometimes we can become so subjective that we can't see everything clearly.  Freinds are invaluable for this.

I just want to add one last thing...please don't lose sight of how much pain there is with cancer. 

Her Retired AvatarComet - 1999 to 2011

She departed us unexpectedly  January 23, 2011 at the age of 12 1/2.

She was born with a deformed front leg and a tripawd all of her life.

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2 April 2012
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6 April 2012 - 6:28 am
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I went through the exact same thing with my great dane, Daisy, two years ago.  She was losing her two year battle with lymphoma and we had decided to say goodbye on a Monday so that we could spend the entire weekend with her.  I got home from work on Friday and her breathing was labored.  I hugged her and talked to her and I could tell in her eyes that she was ready.  I called my wife and we met at the vet's office Friday afternoon.  I was a mess as we walked in and they put her on the table.  After she passed, a great sense of relief came over me as I knew she was no longer in pain.  As dog owners we all know that we will one day face this and I firmly believe our companions have a unique way of letting us know when they are ready.  You will make the right decisison for both you and Percy and please do not stress or worry, Percy knows you love her.

San Diego, CA
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29 October 2010
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6 April 2012 - 12:40 pm
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Please please please change how you are thinking about this in your mind. When the time comes (and i hope it will not be sudden and that you have some good time left with Percy): you are not "killing" your dog. You will be performing a great, last unselfish act to set your dog free from pain. You will not be murdering him. The way we talk to ourselves is so important (in all kinds of situations, but especially in these terribly difficult ones)! Please be nicer to yourself at this difficult time.

Personally, I like to think we helped Abby with the final fitting for her wings.

Jackie, Angel Abby's mom.

Abby: Aug 1, 2009 – Jan 10, 2012. Our beautiful rescue pup lived LARGE with osteosarcoma for 15 months – half her way-too-short life. I think our "halflistic" approach (mixing traditional meds + supplements) helped her thrive. (PM me for details. I'm happy to help.) She had lung mets for over a year. They took her from us in the end, but they cannot take her spirit! She will live forever in our hearts. She loved the beach and giving kisses and going to In-N-Out for a Flying Dutchman. Tripawds blog, and a more detailed blog here. Please also check out my novel, What the Dog Ate. Now also in paperback! Purchase it at Amazon via Tripawds and help support Tripawds!

Greater Western Washington area
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25 August 2010
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6 April 2012 - 7:49 pm
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I went through this too, and felt intense pressure from the outside world to put my boy to death.  It wasn't until I saw him struggle to hold himself upright to go potty, and he lost that struggle that I realized it was time. His back and his front leg shook in the effort, and I know he wanted very much to relieve his potty problem, but wouldn't potty on himself.   I loved him with everything that I am, and felt I was his only champion.  I had to do the best for him, because others didn't know him like I did.  It no longer was "death" to me, but I was protecting him from suffering.

My boy never really gave me the look, but I knew his body was done.  His body was breaking and I couldn't stop it any longer.  He and I will always love each other, but now one of us is on the other side.  I miss him moment to moment.  He is as a part of my heart as my blood supply. 

Now, looking back, it was a defining moment to see him collapse, not able to stand to go potty.  He wanted to go so badly before he died.  I wish I could have saved him from that uncomfortable feeling.  I feel my heart beat and know he is with me. 

Elizabeth, Sammy's mom

Diagnosed with osteosarcoma in the right front leg 8/23/10,

leg fractured 8/27/10,

leg amputated 8/30/10

http://sammyand.....pawds.com/

 

I couldn't begin to say how special Sammy is to us.  Living and laughing with and loving this wonderful boy is priceless.

26
6 April 2012 - 10:30 pm
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Well I am glad that you are taking your time with this monumental decision. I haven't said this before but I still wonder if I did the right thing when I decided to put Valentina to sleep. It was 7 months since her amputation and she seemed to be doing really good. I did notice her slowing down and little things were changing but I didn't think much of it. Then one day she started having trouble walking and her back legs were trying to give out. By the next day she could hardly walk at all and I took her to the vet. He said that she had developed severe spinal arthritis and her spinal nerves were being compressed causing her to have some pain and not being able to control her back legs. Her back feet were folding over on themselves and she tried to right them but couldn't. I had to reach down and fix them so she could stand. The vet kept her for a couple of days and put her on high dose steroids. I called and they said she was doing much better and I could come and get her. As soon as we got home and got her out of the car I knew that she wasn't any better. She actually seemed worse. I called the vet and he said the car ride must have disrupted the nerves again and maybe over the next day or two it would get better. But it didn't. It got worse. To take her out my husband and I had to practically carry her and she was a 150lb Great Dane. Once on the grass she would not be able to squat to go pee. She tried and she would just fall down. It was so heartbreaking. Then she started peeing and pooping on her bed because she was unable to stand to go outside. She was even unable to stand to eat or drink water. Seeing how much it exhausted her just to try to get outside to go potty was just awful. I knew she was laying there having to pee or poop and not able to. She had the accidents in her sleep. Being housetrained I guess when she was awake she tried to hold it. Then when she was sleeping it just came out. 

When it got to this point I realized that her quality of life was not good. I did not want to accept it but I knew it was true. I scheduled an appt. for the morning and I took her in. I told the vet how things were going at home and I thought that we needed to put her to sleep. He said that if I wanted he could keep her at the vet for a few more days and give her more high dose steroids and see what happens. But he also said that her condition was very fragile and that it was likely that the same thing would happen again on the car ride home or some other movement would cause the problem to get worse again. I somehow knew in my heart that she was not going to get better and I did not want her to be confined in that tiny cage at the vets office for days just to have to put her to sleep anyway. So I decided to put her to sleep while we were there. I have to say that it was truly awful. At the time and all that day I felt like I had made the right decision.

The next day and many days thereafter I started doubting my decision and wondered if she would have somehow have gotten better if I would have left her at the hospital for a few more days like the vet said I could do. Did I give up on Valentina too soon? My whole body ached to kiss her and hug her again and lots of days I wished I could go back and have tried the hospitalization again to see if it made a difference. Now while writing this it is becoming more clear to me that I made the right decision. When I made the decision it seemed as if some other person took control of my brain temporarily and did what needed to be done. Normally I am a person that would want to draw things out and wait till the last possible second. I am glad now that I didn't make Valentina suffer being crammed in that cage for days when she probably wasn't going to get better anyway. And that I didn't have to witness her getting even worse than she already was.

I think that it is wise of you to be careful what you choose. There are still some days that I wish I had done the opposite of what I did but most days I feel ok about my decision. The thing is as you said you can't go back. So it is very important to make sure of your decision. I think when the time comes you will know just like somehow I knew and my somebody else self took over and made the decision. It can be really confusing!! Whatever and whenever your decision I know without a doubt that it will be out of your love for Percy. I am really glad that you have Tripawds to help you talk out your decision as you go through this. I think it will help you see things in a clearer light. Praying for your time with Percy to be the very best it can be. God Bless You.  

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6 April 2012 - 11:36 pm
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Ellen, that does not sound weird.  I've tried to tell Percy that it is ok if he needs to stop fighting, that it is ok if he needs to leave, and that I will miss him tremendously but that I will be ok and he does not need to worry about me.  I wonder if he is staying for me.  I had not thought of asking what he would like me to do.  I love working with animals and wish I could say that I can communicate with them, but it doesn't seem to work when I actively try.  Oftentimes I will look at Percy and know exactly what he's thinking or what he wants.  I am positive that I know.  But when I actively try to talk with him or ask him questions, I rarely get anything back.  I must not be listening in the right way those times.

Shari, Belle is gorgeous.  She looks very regal in that picture.  Thank you for describing your experience at the crematorium.  I'm sorry, I did not mean to ask you to relive that.  It will definitely help to know what to expect, thank you.  It also helps to hear that seeing the ashes was not horrifying.  I still want to be there for the cremation but I'm dreading the moment when they give me his ashes.  I don't know what it will be like to see Percy like that.

The onset of Percy's symptoms was definitely different from what you described with Belle's stroke. 

Micki, you're right, I'm sure I will wonder "what if."  That's the hardest part about all of these cancer decisions.

Karen, thank you for your comment about giving up.  I had not thought of it that way.  I had been thinking that anything that involved stopping fighting the cancer was basically giving up, but I guess that is mainly looking at it from my selfish point of view of wanting him with me.  For a while, fighting the cancer = what's best for Percy.  I guess that's not true anymore.

Jerry and Jackie, thanks.  I do understand that it will set Percy free from this disease and what it's done to his body.  It's just hard to think of ending Percy's life as a good thing.

cometdog, I absolutely don't want to lose my friend who is trying to help.  I know she meant well and she is one of the few people here who gets how much Percy means to me.  I am glad I figured out before it was too late that this must be my decision alone and that what other's think should not factor into my decision.  There is a counselor at the hospital where I took Percy who would talk with those of us waiting for our pets.  I had talked with her about this and remember being surprised and slighty frustrated that she did not offer any advice as to how to know when was the time.  And there was a volunteer that I always tried to avoid talking to because she kept offering advice that I did not ask for or want.  Now I see that why the counselor did what she did (or did not) and why I tried to avoid the volunteer.

uscphanatic, I'm so sorry to hear about Daisy.  This is the only thing about dog ownership that I don't like.  I wish their lives were not so short.

Elizabeth, thanks for sharing your experience with Sammy.  In case I don't see the look, I'm glad to know that it is ok to let them go even if that does not happen.  I know what you mean about them being a part of us.  Percy is the best part of me and I feel like my heart is being cut out when I think of losing him.

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6 April 2012 - 11:58 pm
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angel,  I remember all that you and Valentina went thru when she first had her amputation and am so sorry that you had to let her go.

Percy had IV steroids as well.  They said that it would decrease swelling and inflamation in the brain due to the tumors.  But they also said that eventually things would get worse because even if the swelling were kept down, eventually the tumor would grow and cause problems.  Percy did get better after the IV steroids, but has since gradually gotten worse.

That's interesting that you describe your "other self" taking over for you.  Several times I've tried to call the vet to make an appointment, and except for the last time, I could not make myself do it.  The last time when I did make the appointment, I forced myself to dial the number of the crematorium figuring that once they answered, I'd have to tell them why I called.  And that got things started.  It's one of those things where I don't think I can do it, but know that I must find a way to make myself do it because that's the only way I'll be able to live with the outcome.  I feel like I have to be absolutely certain about this before acting, and there were just too many doubts and questions on Thursday.

In your heart, where I belong.
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7 April 2012 - 8:39 am
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It was ok to tell you about Belle, both the stroke and the cremation. Don't worry about that. I wanted you to have the details because I don't want you avoiding something that might bring you some peace. Only you know if you want to do that part, but knowledge helps. And you don't have to do as much as I did. You can sit outside or even in your car and let them do everything. That's fine. Nobody will think anything one way or the other about your decision. Will you ever see those people again? Probably not. And they've seen it all. You love your dog; they'll understand that. So if you go, you can always stop and tell whoever you're working with, "I thought I wanted to do this part with you but I really need to let you do it while I wait in my car." 

If I can leave you with one thing from what I wrote before it is this: Doing what I did--for me--helped me feel the completion of everythng. I won't use the word closure. I don't like that word. But I really needed to do that to feel that things were complete. Going to the vet's office to pick up a box a week later has worked for me at other times. For whatever reason, that would not have helped me at this time. 

Keep us posted; we all care about Percy, and about you.

Shari

From abandoned puppy to Tripawd Warrior Dude, Dakota became one of the 2011 February Furballs due to STS. Our incredibly sweet friend lived with grace and dignity till he impulsively raced over the Bridge on 12-15-12.

Dakota's thoughtful and erudite blog is at http://shari.tr.....pawds.com/

30
7 April 2012 - 10:15 am
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After We put Valentina to sleep I called the funeral home that would be doing her cremation. One of the head directors is my next door neighbor and he first hand witnessed Valentina's struggles through her recovery. I had to take her in our front yard to go potty and he was always coming or going while we out there and he would always take the time to come over and say hi to Valentina. Even if she got slobber and hair all over his nice suit. He is the one I chose to do her cremation. They told me her cremains would be ready in a few days to pick up. When I did pick her up I had a comforting moment of just being able to hold her. Even if she was ashes I got to hold her. I had missed her so much in the few days since she had passed and being able to hold her was oddly comforting. I thought I would break down and lose it or something but I just came home and held her beautiful urn in my lap for a very long time and I talked to her. I didn't know where to keep the urn. But I decided to keep it in my room on my nightstand next to my bed along with a picture of her. I put her collar around the base of it. I know that she is there with me every night when I go to sleep and every morning when I wake up.

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