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A grieving mama looking for answers
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Member Since:
25 September 2022
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27 January 2023 - 4:03 am
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Hi. I am a heartbroken mama six days after losing my precious 7/8-year-old bulldog Louie to Mast Cell Tumor (Louie’s exact age unknown because we adopted him at estimate age 2-3). Louie was diagnosed with high-grade MCT in May 2022. He went through almost every treatment that is recommended for his form of cancer, and his tumor(s) were mostly resistant and continued to act aggressively. We finally made the decision to move forward with amputation surgery of his right front leg in September 2022, after his oncologist did thorough staging and could not detect cancer elsewhere in his body. We were told that it was possible that the surgery could be curative, but not probable.

My baby’s cancer “recurred” (really it is more accurate to say that it became detectable) just two months after surgery - pretty much our worse nightmare. Over the holidays, and then during these last few weeks, we started to notice subtle changes that made us know that Louie was not doing well. He had a couple vomiting episodes, pee accidents, and was overall lethargic on some days (at times to the point where we almost took him to the ER). Last week, after a particularly horrific degranulation episode, where he was in so much pain that he was crying out in a way that is too painful to describe, my husband and I decided it was time to end his pain and say goodbye.

One of the things I’m struggling significantly with, and I’m hoping to find support or answers from this group is: Louie was off of his cancer treatment for almost two whole months, starting on 9/13, a week before the surgery (surgeon and oncologist said this was necessary to eliminate risk of surgical complications), and then did not resume treatment until maybe 11/8 or 11/9. Part of the reason for the delay was that we did updated genetic testing on his tumors before deciding which treatment option to pursue (this was per the oncologist’s recommendation). There was a delay on the pathologist’s end, and we didn’t get the genetic testing results until over 3 weeks after surgery. We were originally told it would be 1-2 weeks. I asked his oncologist at least 3 times whether the plan was to wait to get the results before starting cancer treatment again. I was very specific in my communications with how long he has been off treatment. The oncologist did not act with any sense of urgency, and continued to state that we would wait for the genetic testing to come back, and despite my instinct telling me to push back on this, I tempered the advocate in me and threw my trust into our doctor. One other delay I should mention is that, once the genetic testing results came back, we had to wait another 2 weeks or so before the recommended chemo medication was filled by the lab.

I know literally none of it matters now, but I am sitting here agonizing over whether he should have been off of cancer treatment for almost 2 whole months. Our baby is gone, and it is very possible that this would have been the outcome, regardless. But everything I’ve read online seems to suggest that other babies with cancer start their chemo significantly faster following surgery, particularly for high grade tumors. I do not want to be angry with the oncologist, who otherwise took good care of our baby, and I do not want to be angry with myself, but I do also want to know whether it’s valid to say that this was too long of a wait. My husband and I will never know if we would have had more quality time with our baby if we had pushed harder to resume treatment sooner, or to at least do an interim treatment while waiting for genetic results.

Looking for answers and support to help heal my grieving heart. Thank you.

The Rainbow Bridge



Member Since:
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27 January 2023 - 10:33 am
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My heart breaks for you and your husband, I am so sorry Louie got his wings. And I'm glad you shared here, because being able to write everything down is helpful for healing. I know it doesn't feel like it now, but it's a step toward getting your heart and brain to have a truce. In time they will. For now, grieve the way you need to, we are here for you.

First you should know that you were a great advocate for him. You did all you could to make sure he got the treatment he needed and Louie knew that to the very end. 

It really does sound like Louie had a great vet team working to help him beat cancer. I don't often hear about genetic testing for the tumors but it sounds like they are practicing very forward-thinking oncology, which is great. I'm just sorry that there was such a delay in the results. Was that the reason Louie's body couldn't beat the cancer? It's impossible to say. 

Yes, many dogs get chemo right away after surgery. But many do not. And honestly, whether or not they do, what we see here is that while chemo gives dogs a better chance of longer survival time, there are still no guarantees that it will. So even if the tumor typing had come back quicker, there is no way to know if the chemo would have worked the way everyone wanted it to. I think that although the wait was painful, it might have spared Louie of unnecessary medication, vet visits, and downtime that the wrong treatment could have caused. 

In a way, the delay gave you some extra time together, time without all the interference of vet visits and medications. Those moments were precious, and it hurts my heart that you didn't get more of them. I'm so sorry for that.

I don't know if this helps at all, I just don't have answers that can heal your heart. I so wish I did. Cancer is so mean. 

((((hugs)))))icon_cry

Virginia







Member Since:
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27 January 2023 - 11:13 am
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Sending so mich love to you and uour husband.  To hear the seemingly unbearavle agony you are going through with the second giessing, the questions  and knowing how unbearably gutwrenching it was to hear his cries....my heart just breaks for you.  Please know we do understand  every thought  you wrote and can relate. You are. not alone in any of what you expressed, etc.   I know that's  no help and I know there are no words.

I do want to come back, but for now, one quick suggestion  that may help is to set up an appointment with your Onco.   Express that you have  the second guessing,  the questions, etc  whirling around in your head non stop and you would like her feedback.  In nooo way would it be offensive or disrespectful  at all to ask for an appointment. In fact, because  you do respect  her opinion, you are merely asking  for more clarity on the questions  that are haunting you.

Sending you love and surrounding you with cyber hugs

Sally and Alumni Happy Hannah and Merry Myrtle and Frankie too!

Happy Hannah had a glorious additional bonus time of over one yr & two months after amp for osteo! She made me laugh everyday! Joined April's Angels after send off meal of steak, ice cream, M&Ms & deer poop!

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27 January 2023 - 7:16 pm
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Thank you both for your responses. Having my “head and heart come to a truce” resonated with me. I look forward to that happening.

I think I’ll try to focus on your suggestion Jerry of thinking about that period before Louie resumed treatment. He had an extremely rough 2-3 weeks post-amputation, and his body really needed time to heal. Our oncologist was pretty conservative overall, and he knew how difficult Louie’s recovery was. I wonder if that factored into his decision-making to give him a break. Once Louie was feeling better, it eased our hearts to see him playing again, and to see him getting back to his beautiful, sparkly self. It was pretty magical to watch, and like you said, maybe more meds and vet visits would have interfered with his recovery. I know that I can’t let my agonizing get in the way of cherishing what a beautiful life we had with Louie, it’s just so hard not knowing what could have been. My heart physically hurts thinking about it, and I know that’s only because I love my baby so much. I also know that no amount of time with him would have been ever been enough. His pain is gone, and he went very peacefully, on the terms his mommy and daddy felt were best for him. I don’t know how I’ll get through this particular head/heart struggle, but I’m glad to have the two of you to talk with.

The Rainbow Bridge



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27 January 2023 - 8:57 pm
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Sally that is a really good idea to meet with the oncologist. I'm pretty sure most would be willing to have a conversation. No vet wants to lose a patient before they've had a chance to fight the cancer. Oncologists really do want their patients to win that cancer fight and I don't doubt they feel the heartache of saying goodbye sooner than anyone had hoped.

I would agree that chances are good your oncologist took Louie's difficult recovery into consideration too. The body really takes a beating with amputation surgery and some dogs feel it more than others. My guess is the vet intuitively knew he needed more time to bounce back.

And yes, those memories of his awesome life he had with you are far more powerful and long lasting than the bad ones. I always say the only way cancer wins is if we allow it to steal time from our pets, and in this case, if you don't allow it to steal memories of those good times, Louie wins. Cancer can never take that away. He was so much more than what happened during the last few weeks of his life.

I feel your heartache. There are so many what ifs even when our pets do get more time, and we second guess ourselves no matter what. It takes time to know that we did the best thing we could for them. I know for me it took a couple of years. I hope you can find your way there sooner. As you said, he went on your terms, and his. And his legacy is so much more powerful than the heartache. In time you will feel it surrounding you with Louie's spirit, and bringing you comfort. Just give yourself that time and try not to beat yourself up. You will get there, and there is no rush. We are here for you every step of the way.

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27 January 2023 - 11:05 pm
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I think part of why I don’t want to talk with the Oncologist about it is because I recognize how insanely hard that career path is already, and he actually disclosed to me that he lost his own doggy to heart disease in December. I really don’t want to have him take on guilt for this outcome, especially because it doesn’t change anything. I’m sure the field of Oncology already comes with constant doubt and “what ifs,” and I just don’t feel like I have it in me to pile on. I agree that it is a good suggestion, I just don’t know think I can go through with it (at least not right now).

I need to make peace with the fact that I’ll never know if things would have been different if he had started treatment sooner. Even if he had, the cancer cells were still in his body, and his tumors had already resisted every other treatment we tried. So, if I really had to guess, maybe it would have just given us some more time. Technically we could have had more time anyway, as we didn’t let him waste away before giving him his wings. The truth is that, given the continuous degranulation episodes associated with his cancer, we just couldn’t allow him to go through another one. I think this last one was his fourth episode in an eight month period, so we’d probably be looking at another one in a couple months anyway. Every time it happened, it meant a trip to the ER, extremely high dose of steroids and lots of pain meds to try to keep him “comfortable,” leaving him overnight at the hospital, and bruising and swelling all over his belly for more than a week. His episodes were truly nasty. He is free now. He also had significantly more good days than bad days throughout this journey. We didn’t let him slip away. His appetite was fully intact all the way through, and he played with his toys most days until his last three days when he was in too much pain. He had a lot of good walkies in December and January, once we were brave enough to take him post-amputation. We did our best every single day for our little boy, and I just hope it was enough.

Thank you both again so much for listening. Writing it all out is therapeutic for me, especially to others who understand how magical our fur kids are.

Virginia







Member Since:
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27 January 2023 - 11:37 pm
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especially to others who understand how magical our fur kids are.

That's a beautiful way to say it

Just one more follow-up on the suggestion of talking with the Onco.  Perhaps down the road you can email him pretty much what questions you had  written in your first post with some tweaks.  .

It's so lovely  of you to vbe concerned about his feelings and emotions, but I really don't  think that 's how he would react to the concerns  you have expressed.  I actually think you will find peace and reassurance in his answers and why he took the approach he did. And I think the Onco would want that  opportunity  if he knew how much you were struggling  with this.  In fact, I know he would.  

Anyway, just keep that  in the back of your mind if you find it's so overbearing  and keeping you from being able to celebrate  Louie's life with you.

In reading  your post above, I can see that uou are able to use your logic as you process the past couple of days.  You are able to see the extra good days he had with you and, most importantly, you are able to see you prevented  anymore of the inevitable  suffering.  And it was inevitable.   I really believe  this piece of s××t disease had already plotted it's irreversible course.   That's  how cunning and brutal it is.    FWIW, I really believe the end result could not have veen prevented regardless of the chemo.  It would have only meant Vet visits, poking and prodding just when he was finally starting to feel vetter after a rough recovery.   And yes, chemo treatments  are often delayed for that exact reason....or maybe because  the dog developed  pneu6, or anemia, etc, etc and chemo had to be delayed a month, or two, or more.   Such a crap shoot when it comes to chemo anyway.

What you jist wrote is  so important for you to remeber because it is so true;

. He also had significantly more good days than bad days throughout this journey. We didn’t let him slip away. His appetite was fully intact all the way through, and he played with his toys most days until his last three days when he was in too much pain. He had a lot of good walkies in December and January, once we were brave enough to take him post-amputation. We did our best every single day for our little boy, and I just hope it was enough.

Louie knew how much you loved him and he knew you did everything  possible  for him, all while focusing  on his quality. You let him run free to avoid anymore pain.  Yes, that was enough.

We are all right by your side, okay?  We understand  your devotion  to your boy, your depth of love for yim and he for you.  Yes, magical

With love and light

Sally and Alumni Happy Hannah and Merry Myrtle and Frankie too!

Happy Hannah had a glorious additional bonus time of over one yr & two months after amp for osteo! She made me laugh everyday! Joined April's Angels after send off meal of steak, ice cream, M&Ms & deer poop!

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28 January 2023 - 7:45 am
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I am so very sorry for your loss. I don't know if this will help or not, but please take these things into consideration. Everything you did, you did out of love. You did it to extend not only Louie's life expectancy, but the quality of life. Somewhere in our heads as we process the tornado of events that are taking place, something resonates when you know enough is enough. Your heart still can't process it, but your brain does. Different beings process chemo and cancer treatments different ways, but the treatments do take a huge toll on the body. If you had demanded chemo treatments, you may not have had the last glorious days with Louie. He may have been weakened too much, too sick, and still the same outcome with much more pain instead of happiness. 

Also know this... whether it was cancer, injury, illness I have come to the realization that it is absolutely normal to have questions, doubts. We beat ourselves up wondering what we could have done differently.

Technically we could have had more time anyway, as we didn’t let him waste away before giving him his wings. The truth is that, given the continuous degranulation episodes associated with his cancer, we just couldn’t allow him to go through another one. 
  

You loved Louie with all of your being. He knows this. In some strange way, this part of the journey is communicating that love and spending quality time, gluing that bond that holds your hearts together eternally, and doing everything in your power to give the best quality of life that you have left together. We always have those questions that can't be answered. You will find peace in your heart and eventually remember Louie with a smile through the tears. And Angel Louie watching over you and your husband. He will find ways to let you know that he is still there, still in your heart, just in another form. 

Sending hugs, comfort, and peace sp_hearticon2

Hugs,

Jackie, Bo, Andy, Oscar, Phoebe, and the coolest feral tripawd kitty Huckleberry

Huckleberry's Blog

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28 January 2023 - 8:03 am
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Thank you so much Sally <3. My friend shared a quote with me that rang true: “Dogs come into our lives to teach us about love, they depart to teach us about loss.” -Erica Jong

My husband and I don’t have human kids, and our two babies, Jack and Louie, are our first fur babies we’ve had as adults. We adopted Jack when I was 26, and Louie when I was 27. They both have absolutely taught me how to love, and how to feel love in return. Now, at age 33, this is my first real profound and deep loss I’ve ever experienced. Louie is teaching me so much about myself, and about life. I love him beyond measure. The impact he has had on my life could move mountains. I will cherish him forever.

Thank you both again. I hope to find peace in due time and learn how to live life without Louie in physical form, and instead feel him spiritually guiding me like the ball of light he is.

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28 January 2023 - 11:42 pm
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And thank you Jackie, Bo, et. al. for your post too <3. For some reason it wasn’t there when I posted earlier. Yes, what good is quantity of time without quality of life? My boy went through so so so much during his last year and a half. Even prior to his Mast Cell Tumor diagnosis, he had two forms of skin cancer and 9+ mass removals. He also had the worst skin allergies that could not be controlled despite being under the care of an exceptional dermatologist (ironically, when he started taking Prednisone to help treat his MCT, his skin pretty much stayed clear for the remainder of his time). We have several videos of him playing and happy during the time he was off chemo. He had healed from surgery, and our hearts had healed from watching him struggle through recovery.

I think you are wise to point out that there are always unanswered questions and “what ifs,” no matter whether it is injury, illness, or otherwise that brings on the wings. I don’t want those feelings to rob me of the joy I had with Louie. Today is one week since he became our guardian Angel, and I am still broken, but having this forum to connect with others brings me comfort. Thank you everyone for your kind and gentle words that are helping me feel a glimmer of hope during a very dark time.

The Rainbow Bridge



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29 January 2023 - 1:30 pm
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Oh my gosh you are so welcome, that's why we are here. For you to lean on, because we understand what it's like to carry that burden of making all those difficult decisions for our animals, and then having to live with the aftermath of that last decision to relieve them of a body that no longer serves them.

Yes, we always question, no matter the circumstances of their passing, no matter how many years we had together, with or without cancer. It's practically impossible for us to feel like we measured up to being the humans our dogs thought we were, even in the best of circumstances at their death. What we have to comfort us though, are all those good times we had together before they got ready to shed their earth clothes, as Sally (@benny55) likes to say. Really knowing in our heart that we did our best and made them happy in the better days, is how we start to heal. You are doing that by remembering that yes, he did have happy days when he was off chemo! He did show his old sparkle and he lived the life he enjoyed for as long as his body would allow him. That was all thanks to YOU, his favorite human. You did good.

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31 January 2023 - 6:07 am
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I'm so sorry to hear about Louie. We under stand how hard this is. They are part of our family. I will be honest and tell you that Brownie has been gone for over two years. He is still the first thing I think about when I open my eyes in the morning and the last thing I think about when I close my eyes at night. And there are times I still cry. People would tell me it would get better. I think it just is different. I know you have a lot of tears now, but there will become a day when you are just driving down the road, or watching tv and you will smile or laugh out loud because a funny memory from no where came into your head. That is Louie saying "hey mom, do you remember when I did that?"

Then the regrets. Why didn't I do this, what If I would of done that? Just remember you did what you felt was best for Louie, and Louie knew that."

All of us would take our pets pain away and give it to ourselves if we could. I prayed that God would take the cancer away from Brownie and give it to me. He had other plans. But by letting Louie go you took Louie's pain away and now you have the pain. That is the most selfless gift you could give Louie❤️

My Beautiful Beloved Brownie was diagnosed with Osteosarcoma on February 26, 2019.  With all odds against him he lived an additional one year and eight days with amputation, love, and prayer.  I was honored to be his mom, and I have never been so proud!  He will live forever in my Heart!

Brownie Bubba Bell

04/01/2007 - 03/05/2020

"March Saint"

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31 January 2023 - 9:34 pm
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Thank you Brownie’s mama.

I think what you said touched upon one of my biggest fears. You said that you never hit that point where things got “better.” Instead, life just looks different. I am terrified of this. I am terrified that Louie being gone took away a huge part of my joy that I’ll just never get back, because the only way for it to be back is for him to be here with me. Louie, and my other baby Jack, are the lights of my life, and I have a strong suspicion that I never felt true peace before we found each other. I can’t remember what life was like before fur babies, but I know it wasn’t filled with this much love. Both of my babies changed my heart for the better, but the flip side of that is dealing with this intense pain that comes with loss. I know Louie wouldn’t want me to be sad indefinitely, but I can’t see having consistent joy in my life without him. I don’t know what to do or where to go from here.

Virginia







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31 January 2023 - 9:58 pm
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Louie clearly came into your life as a Master Souk's Growth Teacher.  He is your guide who taught you a depth of love and joy that you  never knew existed.  The peace you felt was a sign that  you were (and still are) open to all his life's lessons.  

As they say, when the student is ready the teacher shall appear. And nothing can take away all of the goodness that Louie has instilled in your heart and your soul. It will be there forever as a foundation on which you can continue to grow. 

No, you won't lose the gifts he gave you, you will only expand  the joy and the love and the peace now that you know what they feel like. Louie knew what his purpose was when he came into your life and he has has excelled in his mission.

For now, just take one minute at a time and don't question what the future will hold. Louie has already insured that the gifts he gave you will never leave you. Of course, it doesn't feel like that right now and that's okay.   You are empty snd raw and broken. Just know that the joy and love that Louie showed you are now part of you and will never leave you.  Those gifts will reappear as the layers of grief are slowly pulled back and the enlightened  Soul you have become reveals  itself to you in ways that only Louie could teach you.

Surrounding you with love and light

Sally and Alumni Happy Hannah and Merry Myrtle and Frankie too!

Happy Hannah had a glorious additional bonus time of over one yr & two months after amp for osteo! She made me laugh everyday! Joined April's Angels after send off meal of steak, ice cream, M&Ms & deer poop!

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1 February 2023 - 12:32 pm
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I felt the same way you are when Brownie passed. I though I would never have another bond with a dog like Brownie. Then one day a stray sick little pup came into my life named Kenzie. I have a special bond with her like I will never have again.

What I am trying to say is with each pet we have and love there is a different bond. Because no two dogs are alike. They are all special in their own way.

My Beautiful Beloved Brownie was diagnosed with Osteosarcoma on February 26, 2019.  With all odds against him he lived an additional one year and eight days with amputation, love, and prayer.  I was honored to be his mom, and I have never been so proud!  He will live forever in my Heart!

Brownie Bubba Bell

04/01/2007 - 03/05/2020

"March Saint"

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