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Happy Hannah prescribed Piroxicam & Cytoxin--- ANY INPUT appreciated....I need to proceed.....or not!
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Virginia




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16 July 2013 - 10:35 pm
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So the Onco. said we could do metroomics if I wamted and she would suggest CYTOXIN and PIROXICAM
She said there are no published studies, etc.

Of course, Sassy Sugar Bear is the o lh "study" we need around here! And I told her about her too!
Piroxicam: 15 mg/day
Cytoxin: 20 mg/day

Hapy Hannah had a few "sily" things pop up the last ten days or so..... her EOSINOPHLIS (?) is high and onco. wanted her dewormed first . No stool evidence before...or after deworming ....and, of course, she had a tummy upset So, hopefully did her no harm. It's been horribly hot and humis here and that's made her rather uncomfortable. So, of course, I'm thinking....are these "signs" to not proceed??:-)

Blood tests two weeks from when give her the pill. Then blood work two weeks after that. Then every other month. How does that sound to you uus?

Is this right? If she did evelop a UT from this, as soon as stopped it would clear up? So that's no big deal, right? It just means you sto the chemo.

These drugs can cause loss of appetite .......wait....got some noise goi g on over here....."Hannah, quite laughing so loud ...it's not funny! Even YOU could loose your appetite!"}:-) :-)

So, you just stop the chemo and everything goes back to normal?

I guess that's my contnuing theme questions -----all of these side effects are reversible? Have we ad anyone on the site who had opposite experience with these two drugs?
I think it was Erica saying how badly she felt trying to get Jill to take her "toxic" pill! I've had everything spaced out must right for four or five days so I can give her these pills at a certqin time consistently every ight......and I just can't bring myself to do it!!

Do I give these two at the same time? With or without food? I know you're mot vets but I do value your expertise

I know I'm gonna prceed (I think:-) :-) ) just need a little tripawd power courage infusion! Having you here as our exteneded family family is one of the briliant treasures this journey gives up.
. Hapy Hannah and I are where we are.........and we're in a great place.....because of YOU!

Surrounding eachof you juicy kisses from Hannah and heartfelt hugs from me. Ice cream for everyone!!! "No Hannah, you've alreadyhad two bowls today!!!"

Sally and Happy Hannah

Happy Hannah had a glorious additional bonus time of over one yr & two months after amp for osteo! She made me laugh everyday! Joined April's Angels after send off meal of steak, ice cream, M&Ms & deer poop!

Twin Cities, Minnesota
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17 July 2013 - 9:24 am
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Well, we didn't do teh metronomics , but we were on piroxicam/tramadol. We had to stop the piroxicam b/c of GI distress, and then we switched to pred (which we are still on).

All side effects from the piroxicam went away, though. That I can tell you :-)

"Let us think the unthinkable, let us do the undoable, let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all."
-Douglas Adams, Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency

"May I recommend serenity to you? A life that is burdened with expectations is a heavy life. Its fruit is sorrow and disappointment. Learn to be one with the joy of the moment."
-Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul

Virginia




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17 July 2013 - 9:37 am
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thanks Meghan---that's good to know! As long as any potential side effects dissipate once you stop, that's what I'm looking for.

Thanks for being here for all! Hugs to that sweet Sam

Happy Hannah had a glorious additional bonus time of over one yr & two months after amp for osteo! She made me laugh everyday! Joined April's Angels after send off meal of steak, ice cream, M&Ms & deer poop!

The Rainbow Bridge



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17 July 2013 - 9:45 am
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Hi Sally,

I'm confused why your vet keeps saying there are no published studies about metronomics ...does she not subscribe to professional veterinary oncology journals? World-renowned metronomics expert Dr. Biller has published several and this interview has lots of information your vet can review.

In the meantime, the protocol she prescribed is tried and true and fairly standard. Some oncologists are adding fish oil to the regimen, some are not.  Is she recommending taking cytoxan every day? Some dogs do, some don't. I would ask her why she's going that route.

The biggest side effect you would have to worry about with Hannah (certainly not lack of appetite! ;) is a urinary tract infection. This is most common when a dog takes cytoxan and they aren't let outside to urinate enough. The cytoxan needs to get out of the kidneys quickly and if allowed to sit inside those little buggers overnight it poses a UTI risk.

Also, any NSAID like Peroxicam has a risk of gastrointestinal upset and if left untreated, ulcers. Watch her stools carefully and make sure everything comes out OK. ANY diarrhea, clear mucus or other funky discharge when elimating needs to be addressed immediately.

Ask your vet about other side effects, I'm not sure I covered them all here.

And yes, if she has any side effects you can always discontinue and she will get back to her old self in no time.

It's better to hop on three legs than to limp on four.™
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Virginia




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17 July 2013 - 12:11 pm
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Thanks Jerry for taki g the time to share such helpful info. I SO apreciate it!

When we had our eight million dollar twenty consultation, she told my the cytoxan was every OTHER day.......when I got the prescription from Wedgewood Pharmacy (she set it up) it said EVERY day! I called the onco. and she said, "Oh, when I told you every OTHER day, that was based on a different dose."

I wnt to do what the "norm"" is for most dogs. Again, I know you're not vets but I have to be more proactive with this vet and, if every other is the norm, then that

Hapoy Hannah "holds her pee" longer than any dog I've ever had! I'll let her out in the morning and she'll lay out on the porchc for another two hours before going to pee. Twelve hours is nothing for her! So I'll have to make a point of enticing her to pee more often.

Cuttin off again

Happy Hannah had a glorious additional bonus time of over one yr & two months after amp for osteo! She made me laugh everyday! Joined April's Angels after send off meal of steak, ice cream, M&Ms & deer poop!

New Haven, CT
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17 July 2013 - 12:57 pm
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I'm logging on because just now, Jackson is developing a UTI.  Well, there's no bacteria measured in his urine, but a little blood - that's indicative of cystitis.  Jackson has been on daily cytoxan and rimadyl since his third chemo...which was back at the end of Feb 2013.  Boys usually get this problem less and/or less often then girls.  He's also on a supplement with MSM in it, and that's to help prevent/slow down the problem.  I'm unsure if I'm to be happy that he's gone nearly 5 months without having this problem, or worried.  I'll wait to hear from his onco.

This isn't to scare you!  This symptom is common and can be addressed.  I'd say we've done everything we could to prevent this problem: lots of water, lots of frequent walks, he's a boy (pisses on everything, a lot!), and MSM.

Do the same for Happy Hannah, and you'll be doing your best for her.

~ Katy & Jackson

ACL tear in right hind leg 12/5/12 and scheduled ACL repair surgery 12/21/12. Pre-op xrays revealed osteosarcoma. Amputation 12/28/12.  Chemo (carboplatin) started Jan 10, 2013 and ended on April 5, for a total of 5 doses. He handled carbo like a champ!  No side effects.  We started metronomic therapy at his third chemo and have been also doing some holistic treatments.  He's a lively, playful 10 year old huskie-boarder collie and a very proud member of the Winter Warriors!  Our love. Our funny little guy!

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17 July 2013 - 1:55 pm
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Sally, I don't really have answers to your questions but since we are kind of on the same time frame Ill share what our onco at UGA said on Monday. They would probably recommend Padilla (sp?) for Atlas' metronomics along with continuing the metacam (meloxicam - NSAID) that he is currently on. Atlas is like Hannah in that he will hold his pee for a crazy long time.....must be a big dog-big bladder thing. And he has shown to be hyper-sensitive to drugs all his life so naturally I have concerns. On the other hand, he did not have any of the bad side effects from the carboplatin. I totally get that all this Makes your head spin.... I'm feeling like the damn exorcist kid!!!
Anyway, I remember that you were concerned about the time that had passed for Hannah so For what its worth, i asked the Onco about that and he said that it was perfectly acceptable if a few months pass before proceeding with the metronomics .
Good luck with whatever you decide, and it will never be wrong, because you make every decision from a place of love. And like you said, if it shows problematic you can always stop.
Drooly kisses from Atlas to happy Hannah and big hugs from one mom to another!

Patricia & Mighty Atlas

Orange County, CA
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17 July 2013 - 2:05 pm
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One more note about the Cytoxan.  Max was on cytoxan, and yes, it can cause UTI.  We were also prescribed Lasix with the cytoxan.  If I remember correctly, I believe the Lasix helped dissipate any crystals from forming, thereby avoiding the UTI.  (Hopefully one of our resident vets will chime in on this thread and correct me if I'm wrong.)  Also, our protocol was to be on cytoxan for a short period of time, then switch over to Leukeran.  I can't remember the exact timeframe we were on cytoxan (I'm at work now and Max's medical journal is at home).  I think it was maybe for 3 - 4 months, then we made the switch to leukeran. 

Montana
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17 July 2013 - 6:05 pm
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I don't have any insight to help you with the decision, but just wanted to pipe in and give you support for whatever you decide because it will be the right one for you and Hannah.

Whenever I have to give Shooter his lomustine I feel like the evil queen giving Snow White the poison apple. Ihave to wear surgical gloves to touch it and they want me to feed it to my dog!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Just know I'm thinking about you!

Luanne and Shooter

Spirit Shooter was a Miniature Australian Shepherd who was diagnosed with a MCT and had a LF amp 1/28/13 at 13-1/2 years old. 

Shooter crossed the Bridge on 8/28/13, his 7 month ampuversary and two weeks from his 14th birthday.

http://shooter......ipawds.com

New Haven, CT
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17 July 2013 - 6:09 pm
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I'll add: given today's news for Jackson, I'd encourage you to go with leukeran instead of cytoxan.  Both have been around for a long time, so I'm comfortable with their efficacy.  Cytoxan is preferred a little more b/c it's been used in more dog-cancer studies.  But, there's way more risk of cystitis or UTIs with it.  Cystitis and UTIs aren't awful....if caught early.  I guess that for all we've dealt with here, I'd say: why put yourself and your pup at risk for one more "bump in the road"?  Go with leukeran.  Fewer side effects.

~ Katy & Jackson

ACL tear in right hind leg 12/5/12 and scheduled ACL repair surgery 12/21/12. Pre-op xrays revealed osteosarcoma. Amputation 12/28/12.  Chemo (carboplatin) started Jan 10, 2013 and ended on April 5, for a total of 5 doses. He handled carbo like a champ!  No side effects.  We started metronomic therapy at his third chemo and have been also doing some holistic treatments.  He's a lively, playful 10 year old huskie-boarder collie and a very proud member of the Winter Warriors!  Our love. Our funny little guy!

New York, NY
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17 July 2013 - 6:52 pm
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SALT

 

I may have said that toxic comment, who can remember? I ramble a lot....MY hesitation had a lot to do with jill being a cat and OSA having a slower rate of metastasis in cats (I hate even saying that out loud, i think its going to curse us)....most cats dont even get IV chemo, so that was my hesitation.  I can tell you, after being on this website for so many months now, if I had a DOG with OSA, I would NOT hesitate do do metronomics .

 

Jill is on Leukeran, with nothing else, because cats cannot take NSAID's.  Her onco wanted to go with the leukeran instead of the cytoxan because it MIGHT (not will, but might) cause cystitis.

 

much love,

Erica & Jilly

Jill is a 9-year-old tuxedo kitty. She was diagnosed with Osteosarcoma in June 2012 on her toe in her right hind leg. Her leg was amputated on 12/12/12 and she completed four rounds of chemo (2 of Carbo, 2 of Doxy) in April 2013. "Like" Jill's facebook page: https://www.fac.....tty?ref=hl Proud member of the WINTER WARRIORS!!!! Her blog can be read at http://jillsjou.....ipawds.com. xoxo



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17 July 2013 - 9:13 pm
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Everyone has added a good information.  I will add this.  We didn't stop the cytoxin with Sassy's uti.  The vet felt that it was just a regular uti and not tied to the cytoxin.  she was on antibiotics for a week and then had her normal monthly check at that time and urine checked again and blood was gone so we were correct on that.  finishing the antibiotics this week.  I will add this.  My vet advised us to do the cytoxin in the am as it doesn't sit in the bladder over night. 

But if something happens again we are changing drugs. 

 

I am home during the day as I work from home and can get sassy out more often. 

 

Hugs

Michelle & Sassy

sassymichelle-sm.jpg

Sassy is a proud member of the Winter Warriors. Live long, & strong Winter Warriors.
sassysugarbear.tripawds.com
07/26/2006 - Sassy earned her wings 08/20/2013

05/04/2006 -  Bosch, Sassy's pal, earned his wings 03/29/19  fought cancer for 4 months.

"You aren't doing it TO her, you are doing it FOR her. Give her a chance at life."

Virginia




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18 July 2013 - 9:59 am
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THANK YOU EVERYONE!! You each are the epitome of what this site is about! Always caring and always willing to share information!

MICHELLE! Just that little tid bit about giving the pill in a.m. was a HUGHE distinction! HUGE! And something I would not have thought of had you not taken the time to share! Sooooo glad Sassy girl is over her UTI. What an incredible dog!! THANK YOU!:-) :-)

LUANNE! You are always so supportive of us and it's always uplifting to get your notes! Your support puts a smile on my heart and that's just as healing as any ole' drug! So glad Shooter is doing well! Soooooo glad! THANK YOU for your support:-) :-)

PATRICIA! How very' very kind it was of you to ask your vet the question about metro. starting a couple of months after carbo. Really thoughtful!! I liked his answer too!! It's quite a treat having "second opinions" through your vet! You and Atlas are magnificent! THANK YOU AGAIN:-) :-)

PEPPER! PEPPER! Just "opening " any post of yours and seeing that Jilly's mug up there makes me smile!! Yeah, I think I attributed Luanne's comment about giving the "pill" to Shooter from a previous post to you! Oops! The memoryis such a precous thing to have.......just wish I could remember what it was like to have one!! Thanks for passing on the knfo. your vet shared about Luekeran.....really good to know! Glad that Jilly girl is enjoying her stardom!! She is the world's most famous kitty and we love her:-) :-)

SWEET MAXIMUTT! Bless your heart for taking the time to reply while t work!! It means a lot!! I like the idea of lasix if I contiue with Cytoxan. It makes sense! Having first hand experiences shared by people like you is sooooo important!! THANK YOU SO MUCH for always being so supportive to all of us!:-) :-)

KATY! Your feedback to this post.....and on the one you started yesterday...WOW! Such good information! I tell ya'...this site is like having access to second opinions with the click of a button! The info. you shared with all of us is so helpful! Thank you for taking the time........ESPECIALLY with everything you have going on in your life!! Now go enjoy your vacation...after you give a hug to Jackson for us!! THANK YOU!:-) :-)

MEGHAN! I know I already acknowledged how grateful I was for the heads up on Piroxicam and "possible" GI issues. Just want to add what a special, loving and playful bond you share with Sam!! I think you've found your match in SAM for sense of hmor! Clearly he has one too!! :-) :-)

JERRY! ALWAYS here for us with support, humor, love, compassion.....and such a HUGE amount of information! Your mind ks like a steel trap!! A question comes up and.....BOOM...you have a link or reference for us to study! BINGO....BANGO....we just got inundated with a wealth of info.! I will definitely be on the look-out for any "upsets" with either of these drugs.....thank you for alerting me to the signs. And just plain THANK YOU FOR EVERYTHING:-) :-)

I went ahead and gave Happy Hannah her Cytoxan and Piroxicam this A.M.and will go ahead for the next two weeks which ks when she gets another round of blood tests. I took the mental approach that two weeks of this will cause "no harm"....maybe even good....and, because of all the input, am NOW very well informed on what to watch for should any "issues" arise!!

At the end of two weeks, I will be discussing switching to Luekeran...or...doing the Cytoxan every other day.....and aybe adding Lasix.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE know that when I give each of you a HEARTFELT thank you....-I REALLY do mean it!!

With heartfelt thanks,

Sally and Happy Hannah

Happy Hannah had a glorious additional bonus time of over one yr & two months after amp for osteo! She made me laugh everyday! Joined April's Angels after send off meal of steak, ice cream, M&Ms & deer poop!

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