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Diagnostic Tests to help determine whether to start/stop chemo
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Member Since:
1 January 2010
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24 January 2010 - 6:23 pm
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We decided after consulting with our vet and the oncologist he consults with to go ahead with chemo. But I'd love to hear more about ways to tell if the cancer has already spread. Our vet is doing bloodwork before each chemo treatment, but will that indicate if the cancer has metastasized? Is it worth continuing the chemo if it does metastasize?

Our vet can tell Holly's had her cancer for 21 months (from looking at an old x-ray where they can now see the start of it), and said it appeared to be not aggressive like osteosarcoma normally is, and was well differentiated. The oncologist said her presentation was unusual - in the head of her femur instead of closer to her knee, which could mean that they didn't get it all with the amputation. So even though the x-rays look clean, and her bloodwork looks good, and the surrounding tissue samples taken during her amputation were clean, we'd love to know if there is additional diagnosis we should be doing during chemo (or that new patients should do before chemo starts). Any opinions/advice/experience are appreciated!
Holly and Holly's mom

Holly joined the world of tripawds on 12/29/2009. She has a big little sister, Zuzu, who idolizes Holly and tries to make all of her toys into tripawds in Holly's honor. And she's enjoying life one hop at a time!

http://anyemery.....ipawds.com

Winnipeg
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24 January 2010 - 6:31 pm
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Hi Holly's mum

Many of us (maybe most but I'm not sure) just had chest x-rays before amp and chemo. If I were to travel down this road again, I would ask for additional scans (see our big discussion in the thread 'regrets about chemo' earlier this week). One possibility that seems worthwhile and practical (it is not that expensive and is not invasive except for a haircut on the abdomen) would be ultrasound of internal organs (liver, kidney and other nearby soft tissue). Other options are CT scans or MRI to check other bones, the spine and soft tissue but I think we are talking big money once you get into those.

An ultrasound can provide baseline information that might prove useful down the road, at least it would have been useful in our case. An overall CT or bone scan would have also been useful in our particular case, but I suspect the cost is enough that it probably is not justified for general use at this point.

Tazzie's Susan

On The Road


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24 January 2010 - 9:23 pm
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We agree with Tazzie's answer about tests that can be done.

In fact we just talked to a very well known oncologist the other day, and she said that yes, these scans can be done to check. The issue is whether or not a vet/oncologist has the technology at hand, and if so, is the client willing to pay for any of these tests? They can run into the thousands of dollars.

It started 21 months ago huh? Wow. Pretty amazing.

The thing about doing the tests is, lots of times, many dogs develop mets suddenly and without warning. Even with tests, there seems to be no way of knowing how quickly they will happen. There really are no certain answers when it comes to bone cancer. The best we can do to stay strong is take things one day at a time.

Keep us posted on what you opt to do.

Tripawds Founders Jim and Rene
tripawds.com | tripawds.org | bemoredog.net | triday.pet

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25 January 2010 - 7:22 pm
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Thanks for all this information! I now have a list of questions for the oncologist - between this and the nutrition threads there is plenty to ask her.

>>"It started 21 months ago huh? Wow. Pretty amazing." ...

Holly had x-rays in the fall of 2007. I haven't seen those x-rays, but our vet now says that he can see the beginning of a spot on her femur and believes that was when the cancer started. At the time it didn't look like much, or I'm sure he would have investigated further. Her next x-rays were in Oct 2009 and showed that there was alot going on in her femur up near her hip. So he thinks her osteosarcoma was slow growing.

I think I will ask about an ultrasound to see if they can tell anymore than they could from the last x-ray. It's worth asking about, anyway. I think the cost of the other scans would be out of reach for us at this time.

Thanks again!

Holly joined the world of tripawds on 12/29/2009. She has a big little sister, Zuzu, who idolizes Holly and tries to make all of her toys into tripawds in Holly's honor. And she's enjoying life one hop at a time!

http://anyemery.....ipawds.com

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25 January 2010 - 7:50 pm
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One thing that isn't really part of Nikki's story on the blog pages is that earlier in the year we lost our 14 year old (actually she wasn't quite 14) Lab/Spaniel mix Patches to cancer. We don't really know for sure what the type was, as the tumor was internal and it burst. We had no idea at all that Patches was sick.

At about the same time, Nikki had a small growth on her underbelly, so we took her in and got it all checked out. They determined at that time that she had some "fat deposits" in her abdomen that were not cancerous in nature. We had them removed and double-checked just to be sure. All of the tests done, and the bloodwork showed no signs of cancer whatsoever… Then only 4 months later we started down this path….

Anyway, the point that I am making is that Mary and I were completely and totally shocked by the diagnosis for Nikki. When she started limping, we were convinced (along with Dr. Pyne, who's the one that did the mass removal in the first place) that it had to be something like an ACL tear. When we took the X-Rays to the ortho specialist and he said, "Cancer", we were sure he was wrong. That same day though we started down the path of checking everything. They did an Ultrasound of Nikki's internal organs right there, with us present, to make sure that nothing else was out of the ordinary. They checked everything, and the visit (keep in mind that this is a specialty vet) with both the ortho specialist and internal doc that ended up doing the ultrasound cost us $400. I think that was money well spent, and it let us know that at least the cancer hadn't spread at that point.

If you look at the X-Rays that I posted to Nikki's blog, you can clearly see the bone lesion, but it really is small enough that you would miss it if you weren't looking for it. Between that, the Ultrasound, and the X-rays before surgery, we are confident that we made the most informed of decisions when it came down to the amputation.

As for Chemo, well, since we're still pretty confident that there's nothing in her lungs or other internal organs, I think we're making the right choice to not go down the Chemo road. It might be a different decision if we had detected mets.. (But then again, we might not have done the amputation either, hard to say)

Los Angeles
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25 January 2010 - 9:20 pm
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Hi Holly's mom,
I asked these same questions to my vets/oncologists. I was told that 90% of the cases, by the time they're diagnosed, have spread beyond the limb to the body and often times there could be mets on the lungs but it's not visible yet in the x-ray. As for the chemo, I was told that doing 5 - 6 chemo (carboplatin) treatments + amp will extend the life by another 6 months beyond the 10 to 14 months with 4 treatments + amp. Some doctors recommend 4 treatments. My doctor recommends 5 - 6 but that would be the absolute max because after that, there's no benefit to doing any more chemo. Once it reaches the lungs and if you haven't completed all of the recommended # of chemo treatments, your doctor will probably suggest no more chemo. So I kind of take that as my answer for when do you know to stop the chemo – when the cancer spreads to the lungs and/or you’ve done the full 5 - 6 treatments. We were told that we could do a full body scan to see how far spread the cancer is but in our case, we opted not to since it's very expensive. So we're just doing chest x-rays at this point every 3 months. I’d be curious to know more about the ultrasound and if it's recommended for any type of bone or soft tissue cancer. I think that's great that Holly has a slow growing cancer as this bone cancer can be so aggressive. Good luck with your research and ultrasound. Hope Holly continues to do well!

My sweet golden Mackenzie.  She became my angel on Dec 29, 2010 at the age of 8 1/2  although she was always my angel from the time we brought her home.  She was diagnosed with osteosarcoma in Sept 2009 and officially became a tripawd (front leg) on Nov 5, 2009.  She will be forever in my heart and now she's running free with all of our other tripawd heroes.  I love you Mackenzie!

Winnipeg
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26 January 2010 - 9:46 am
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It is interesting that your onco said that 5-6 Carbo might extend the life by another 6 months versus 4 treatments. Oslo had mentioned that and was going to double-check with his onco. That would be a great statistic.

Remember that mets do not always show up as predictably in the lungs as most oncologists indicate. During our short time in tripawds, we have seen dogs develop mets in other locations. If dogs do get through chemo, my onco said it is more likely to show up in the spine. (But we had dogs who did not have chemo or did not get through chemo develop mets in the spine, and other locations.)

Do your best to give your pup a long happy life. But try not to worry about how long she has. I absolutely hated it when people at parks asked "how long does he have" or "did they get it all", implying that amputation would not have been worthwhile unless it was a cure. That totally missed the point. He was happy right at that moment and THAT is what mattered!

Information from ultrasound, which is not as pricey as a bone scan, can be a useful indication of the health of those organs (kidneys, liver, spleen) and also possible mets. Such baseline information can be helpful down the road if something shows up in a location other than the lungs.

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26 January 2010 - 7:00 pm
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Thanks again to everyone for their words. I continue to think this site has been a saving grace for me as we travel this journey with Holly.

Our oncologist also said going the full 6 rounds of chemo was better -but didn't give me stats on how much better. I may add that to my list of questions to see what she says. Now I also want to look at the earlier x-ray to see what it looked like - I am amazed that Nikki went from nothing showing to needing amputation in 4 months - that answers another question I had about how aggressive this cancer usually is. Of course looking at Holly's x-ray from 2 years ago would let me know if it was substantially different than Nikki's was at time of diagnosis for her. It might just be that Holly got lucky (or unlucky, depending on how you look at it) that it didn't progress so quickly. I do remember that about the top 1/3 of her femur looked strange in the x-ray from October, so I'd guess that means it was pretty well developed by then. If I can get a copy of her x-rays I will post them here. I'll report back any answers I get in the next few days.
Thanks again!
Holly and Holly's mom

Holly joined the world of tripawds on 12/29/2009. She has a big little sister, Zuzu, who idolizes Holly and tries to make all of her toys into tripawds in Holly's honor. And she's enjoying life one hop at a time!

http://anyemery.....ipawds.com

Los Angeles
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26 January 2010 - 7:30 pm
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Apparently the 5-6 chemo treatments is based on a recent study that was done (not sure how far back it goes.) Probably even a year ago, the protocol would have been to do 3 - 4 treatments. When I first took Mackenzie to one oncologist in October, they recommended 3 - 4 treatments. Then when we started her first chemo round after her surgery, which was at the end of Nov, another oncologist who is now treating her at the same facility, told me about the recommended 5 -6 treatments and the stats for that so I think this study is relatively new. For Mackenzie our oncologist is recommending 5 treatments - she's a little bit more on the sensitive side. Tazzie, your comments on the mets developing in other locations, very good point. I'm not sure why the oncologists don't really mention the spine area as a possibility- which never even occured to me until I did research on this website and found that mets did develop in the spine with other tripawds. As Jerry mentioned, mets can develop suddenly and without warning. It kind of makes me wonder if just doing the chest X-Ray is enough. Today though Mackenzie had her 3 month chest X-Ray and it came back clean - big sigh of relief in any event!

My sweet golden Mackenzie.  She became my angel on Dec 29, 2010 at the age of 8 1/2  although she was always my angel from the time we brought her home.  She was diagnosed with osteosarcoma in Sept 2009 and officially became a tripawd (front leg) on Nov 5, 2009.  She will be forever in my heart and now she's running free with all of our other tripawd heroes.  I love you Mackenzie!

Winnipeg
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26 January 2010 - 8:08 pm
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The chest x-ray is standard. If spine mets were to show, they'd probably appear so quickly there is little you can do, but that also means they are highly unlikely to be present now. But there can be various 'imperfections' in some of the internal organs. When Tazzie did get his subcutaneous met and the onco wanted us to look for other mets, we had no way to know what was just an imperfect bump (e.g., nodes in the spleen) and what might have been a cancer met. I think Raven and Shilo founds lots of stuff in their internal organs a couple months after surgery, and again you do not know what was present at the time of surgery or chemo.


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27 January 2010 - 11:49 am
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As Tazzie says the dogs that have treatment with chemo seem to be more likely to develop bone mets rather than lung mets, and that includes the spine.  Unfortunately it would be almost impossible to pick up a spinal met on an xray (you would need to do an MRI or CT scan).  Even in dogs with symptoms of paralysis due to a spinal met the lesion will often be missed on an xray unless the bony destruction is severe.  This is because the  symptoms are due to pressure on the spinal cord so the bony lesion does not have to be very big to cause problems.  Even if spinal mets are found early the prognosis is dismal, especially for a large dog since surgery is often unlikely to help in this area.  IV pamidronate and local radiation can help to relieve pain but may take days to work and may only be effective for days to weeks.

I think it still smart to check lung rads while on chemo. If any mets develop then chemo might need to be discontinued or changed to another drug.  We did 5 doses of carboplatin for my Tazzie and she lived for 14 months.  I often wonder if a 6th dose would have helped her live longer but I stopped after 5 on the advice of her oncologist and based on the fact that her veins were starting to give out.  I am now going to recommend 6 doses if the dogs can tolerate it.

Pam

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28 January 2010 - 6:37 pm
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We went to visit with the oncologist yesterday, and I asked if she had seen any statistics on 4 chemo treatments vs. 5-6 treatments. She said she hasn't seen anything published, but she thought it made sense that if you give 5-6 treatments the outcome would be better on average than giving 4 treatments.

I then asked about other diagnostic tests and treatments. We talked some more about how Holly's cancer presented, and she said that because it was up at the top of the femur in the hip joint she will not be surprised if it resurfaces in that area again in the future. She talked about possibly doing radiation in that area, but she really felt our best chances were with chemo. And since we've already started chemo and I'm trying to keep costs from running wild, and because she is cognizant of how quickly all of these costs add up we didn't spend too much time discussing radiation. But if others are willing to spend the additional money, it sounds like in cases like Holly's (where the cancer was very close to the hip joint) it could potentially improve the odds to also use radiation in the immediate area since the cancer was so close to the amputation site.

I asked her about ultrasounds, and she said if cost wasn't an issue she would probably recommend both x-rays and ultrasounds. But since cost is usually a factor, and since this usually goes to the lungs next she feels that x-rays combined with checking bloodwork - particularly for possible issues with the liver - are good tools. She realizes she won't necessarily catch everything that way, but I appreciate that she's trying to give us the most cost-effective options. We also discussed the possibility of it going to the spine, or other bone, and she said what Tazziedog said - that it's very difficult to detect in the spine.

She started talking about other scans - bone scans and such. But I know we don't have the money for that and chemo so we kept that discussion short. I asked her if she could give me an idea of cost of bone scans, but she said they haven't had an in-house radiologist for several years so really didn't know what current costs are.

So for now we are going to take everyone's advice and take this one step at a time and enjoy each day we have with Holly.
Susan

Holly joined the world of tripawds on 12/29/2009. She has a big little sister, Zuzu, who idolizes Holly and tries to make all of her toys into tripawds in Holly's honor. And she's enjoying life one hop at a time!

http://anyemery.....ipawds.com

Los Angeles
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28 January 2010 - 8:24 pm
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I didn't know that bone mets were more common than lung mets when doing chemo. Kind of scary, especially since it's more difficult and expensive to detect. Interesting how all these vets and specialists have different types of information on all of this, even within my own vetinarian cancer group.

Speaking of costs, before we amputated Mackenzie's leg, we opted to do radiation on the leg with the tumor. It was very expensive ($3500) which included a bone strengthening agent (that alone was $1000). Unfortunately Mackenzie didn't respond well to the radiation after 2 weeks and it turns out that when they did the biopsy on the amputated leg, they found that she had a fracture in her leg from the cancer which prevented the radiation from really working. However, the good news was that she was clear of any mets in that leg when they amputated and it turns out that the radiation did help afterall. From what I understand, radiation is good for areas of the body that can't be amputated (I can't think of another way of putting this). So in our case, we would have been better off skipping the radiation. But lessons learned. I'm glad your doctor is being cognizant of all the costs involved. After the amount of money we spent on radiation, the amputation, chemo, etc., we've realized that we only want to do what's necessary and required while maintaining the best quality of life. I believe we were quoted about $3000 +/-for a bone scan. They wanted to do this before the amputation and we decided not to. Some vets can throw out all these options at you and it can get so confusing and so expensive too.

I agree with you Pam that recommending 6 treatments would be good if dogs can tolerate it. That's great to hear that Tazziedog lived for 14 months. We're going on the 5th treatment in 3 weeks. All we can do is take it one day at a time and hope for the best. Good luck Holly with your decision! Kami (Mackenzie's Mom)

My sweet golden Mackenzie.  She became my angel on Dec 29, 2010 at the age of 8 1/2  although she was always my angel from the time we brought her home.  She was diagnosed with osteosarcoma in Sept 2009 and officially became a tripawd (front leg) on Nov 5, 2009.  She will be forever in my heart and now she's running free with all of our other tripawd heroes.  I love you Mackenzie!

Winnipeg
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28 January 2010 - 9:07 pm
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I think each ultrasound cost us about $250, but they were done by a vet trained in ultrasound not an onco. One was of the heart (to see if chemo was hurting it) and the one more relevant to this discussion was done to find possible mets in the liver, kidneys, spleen, etc, once we found the subcut met. We found a few questionable areas in the liver and spleen, but  had no baseline scan from the time of amputation to enable us to figure out if they had always been there or were possible mets. I consider that a relatively low cost relative to the cost of chemo.

I think you said that Holly had a high liver enyzme. Did the vet give an opinion or diagnosis on the reason for that?

Since I joined this website in mid-July, we have seen some dogs develop other types of mets (spine, amputation site, internal organs, SQ) even if they did not have chemo or were just starting or in the middle of chemo. I know oncologists keep saying mets hit the lungs first and obviously that has to be the most common by far for them to say that. But based on what I have seen here, I think they would at least make owners aware of other possibilities. I think we get a pretty decent sample size coming through this website.

On The Road


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28 January 2010 - 9:49 pm
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kbryant said:

Apparently the 5-6 chemo treatments is based on a recent study that was done (not sure how far back it goes.)


Guys, I just caught this part of the conversation, and wanted to confirm that yes, we just learned that six doses of carboplatin is now the current protocol, which resulted from a study that was presented at the October 2009 Veterinary Cancer Society conference. The study was conducted by UC Davis' Dr. Katherine Skorupski, and the abstract states:

"Results: 36 dogs received carboplatin alone, 18 were randomized to receive carboplatin AND doxorubicin. Carboplatin alone is 535 days compared to 200 days for dogs receiving Carboplatin and Doxorubicin (p=0.013). The median survival for dogs receiving Carboplatin alone is 572 days compared to 229 days in dogs receiving Carboplatin and Doxorubicin (p=0.007).

Conclusion: These preliminary results suggest that 6 doses of Carboplatin may be superior to 6 total doses of Carboplatin and Doxorubicin as adjuvant chemotherapy for appendicular OSA. Continued enrollment and data maturation is necessary to confirm these findings."

Tripawds Founders Jim and Rene
tripawds.com | tripawds.org | bemoredog.net | triday.pet

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