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Vegie water: SAFE way to force-drink?
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Winnipeg
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9 October 2009 - 8:00 pm
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Hello K9 nutrition experts

I have been boiling heaps of vegies for Tazzie. I go to the store and buy broccoli, red cabbage, carrots, cauliflower for him, and a can of beans for me – what is wrong with this picture???

I do this to boil or simmer the vegies to death to make vegie water (no salt or anything, just vegies) so that I can get him to drink about one juice pitcher of water a day. I am doing this because it is supposedly good for humans, and presumably dogs, to flush their bladder frequently when taking Cytoxan (they say every few hours with humans, but that might be for a higher dose). Tazzie does not normally pee very often, and this is definitely motivating him to pee.

My question is whether there is anything unsafe or certain vegies to be avoided? I know to avoid onions and won't use mushrooms. Anything else I should avoid or any problem with this method of administering WATER? My vet thought it would be okay, and possibly good for his kidneys as well as the Cytoxan issue, but I did not go over issues with specific vegies. Are vegies such as swiss chard okay?

I don't know what to do with all the remaining vegie pulp. I think it would be over the top to give him vegies in addition to this vegie water. They are not very appetizing by the time I've boiled the *#@! out of them.

Susan & T2

Kirkland, WA
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9 October 2009 - 8:19 pm
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what if you blend them and use them as a yummy sauce for his food? 

The Rainbow Bridge



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9 October 2009 - 9:01 pm
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Susan,

This is a GREAT way to get more water into Tazzie's system.

What we were told about giving Cytoxan is always give it in the morning, and make sure he pees more that day.

As far as the veggie water…well, how about just trying to give him the cooked veggies along with his regular meal? As long as you don't boil the heck out of them, they'll have so many nutrients!

I'm reading a book right now called The Whole Pet Diet. While it's not a cancer-diet specific book, it does have AWESOME recipes for home cooking, like this one, Spot's Stew.

The vegetables that dogs should stay away from are like you said, onions (Whole Pet Diet says portobello mushrooms are OK), and gassy veggies like broccoli and cabbage. There is some controversy about whether or not to give garlic, but Whole Pets Diet recommends it for it's nutritional properties.

.

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Edmonton
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9 October 2009 - 9:49 pm
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Swiss chard is fine. 

You may also consider below, they are all full of nutrients, enzymes, … etc.  (particularly juiced and in raw state)

  • watercress – an intestinal cleanser
  • parsley
  • dandelion (liver cleanser)
  • celery – maintain fluidity of blood and lymph.  Also a natural diuretic. I suppose it is good to help flush the bladder.
  • beets

Perhaps throw in a little bit of chicken or beef just to get some meat flavour out if the plain veggies water is not appealing enough for Tazzie.

Broccoli, like many other cruciferous vegetables, and beans can cause intestinal gas, but I think it is generally referred to when they are raw.  I suppose they don't cause gas too much when they are cooked.

The Rainbow Bridge



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9 October 2009 - 10:00 pm
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Yeah, I never had a problem with broccoli, even raw, so I dunno…

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Edmonton
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9 October 2009 - 10:18 pm
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Genie never had problem with juiced raw broccoli and cauliflowers either.  I guess, again, every dog is different.

Same thing with dairy products, some dogs have no problem whatsoever, some don't do well.

Winnipeg
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9 October 2009 - 11:10 pm
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You Pups are quick! Tazzie and I watch a little DVD and the dieticians – Jack, Jerry and Genie – have been hard at work!

Thanks for the tips on a natural diuretic (Celery), Genie. My vet left a message with some vet hot-line to ask about natural diuretics, since some people and dogs take a diuretic with Cytoxan. Because that is hard on the kidneys, we want 'natural', so I will try celery. She was looking into dandelion.

Tazzie laps up the vegie water so no probably getting him to drink it. Today's batch featured lots of red cabbage and it smelled pretty good. Yesterday's batch, cauliflower and carrots, smelled bad to me, but  he liked it.

I was giving cooked vegies to Tazzie before, just to dilute all the protein he is eating. But now the goal is not to give him vegies, but to give WATER, lots of water. The vegie taste is enough to get him to drink as much as I will pour into his dish. It is really getting him to pee more often, that's for sure. Hopefully it is not just washing the Cytoxan and everything else out of his system.

I don't want to give him all the vegies in addition to the vegie water. Besides, last time I checked, Tazzie is a dog which means he has a short alimentary canal with no microbes, which means it is not particularly capable of extracting nutrients from straight-up vegies. But maybe if I mince the vegies and then simmer them, there will be less waste.

We will definitely check out “Spot's Stew”. Sounds like something not to be missed.

Susan & Tazzie 2

p.s. Genie – do you have snow over there? We got heaps tonight – and it is our first snow. The chances of Tazzie swimming tomorrow are rapidly diminishing.

Edmonton
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10 October 2009 - 8:54 am
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Tazzie said: p.s. Genie – do you have snow over there? We got heaps tonight – and it is our first snow. The chances of Tazzie swimming tomorrow are rapidly diminishing.


It has a thin layer of white stuff out there now, not quite in “heaps” yet.  Forecast are calling for flurries/snow for the next four days.  I think they are going to stay this time.   :-(

Happy Thanksgiving (Canadian), Tazzie & Susan!

Edmonton
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10 October 2009 - 11:56 pm
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Just learned a couple of more natural diuretic …

  • Barley – boil water with barley, use whole barley instead of pearled/milled barley.  Barley soup/water can be also helpful for flatulance, diarrhea, constipation. (Note: it contains gluten)
  • Apple cider vinegar – dilute with water.
Winnipeg
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11 October 2009 - 6:11 pm
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Genie – thanks!

Barley is a carb, but I think I need to use some carbs in Tazzie's diet, to keep the protein level down (due to his kidney issues), and barley might be a good one. I can't find good information on carbs that are less problematic for cancer (complex vs. simple. . .). My vet also said that protein from egg or cottage cheese is not as hard on the kidneys as protein for meat, but I can't find that sort of information either. If you happen to know of good information on different carbs (is rice preferable to potato, when it comes to the sugar cancer issues? I have heard that diabetics are told to avoid potato, which leads me to think it is worse) or protein sources and kidneys, let me know.

This is kind of a different topic, I realize.

Susan

Edmonton
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11 October 2009 - 8:23 pm
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Hey Susan, for getting the diuretic effect, boiling barley with water, and just consume the liquid.

PROTEIN… it is the general understanding that meat as protein source is harder on the kidneys than tofu, eggs, … etc.   If possible stay away from red meats.   Hope that with the force-flushing can alleviate the burden on the kidneys.

CARBS … Have you checked out the PDF from the Tripawds Download blog?  The 2nd section has quite a few collections of web links about relationship between carbs, glucose, cancer.

The idea is to keep one's blood glucose level as low as the body can handle, and as steady as possible.  When there is a sudden increase of glucose entering into the blood stream, there will be spike of releasing of insulin. The more processed  (reheating counts too!) a food contains carbs is, the easier it is to get converted into glucose.  Potato definitely a no-no for cancer patients. Glycemic index (GI) is generally used to measure how easy a food can be converted.  Some people prefer using Glycemic Load (a further calcuation from GI)

If you like, you might want to post a follow up under cancer/sugar/carbs/blood glucose, hope that others members can chime in!

zoes4life
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12 October 2009 - 11:42 am
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Hi, I'm not sure about which veggies are easily digestible for dogs, but I've always had problems with hypoglycemia so I'm a big believer in the Zone diet. The veggies with the lowest glycemic index are mostly beans(soybeans and red lentils), moderate high sweet potatoes, and green peas, extremely high is of course, potatoes and carrots.  Barley has are very low glycemic index.  I really don't know anything about barley.  But it sounds like it would be the best carb to add in.  I've been giving Zoe broccoli, is that okay if it doesn't cause gas?  

The Rainbow Bridge



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12 October 2009 - 12:06 pm
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My Mom thinks Broccoli is fine, I used to eat it all the time.

It's better to hop on three legs than to limp on four.™
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