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Homemade food with no carbohydrates, and advice on necessary/unnecessary supplements
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Forum Posts: 106
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5 December 2014 - 8:44 am
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Hi everyone,

I would be grateful for some advice or guidance ...

I fed our older GSD Raven a 100% raw diet (not the BARF thing) for a while, but here on PEI there are no meat processing plants,and as a consequence, it was a relatively expensive exercise, as you cannot buy in bulk. The cost, however, was secondary to my concerns about the somewhat less than "fastidious" eating habits of a GSD. Whole chicken  thighs disappeared in a couple of gulps..Chewing food appears to be an alien concept to a German Shepherd.... Even though she had a "sylph" like figure, and her coat shone as if it had been "French Polished" the choking risk was too high to continue the raw diet.. I buy the top of the line no-grain dog food, and still give both Raven and Serge (our tripawd GSD) a raw meaty soup bone once a week, to keep their teeth in order, and any cooked leftovers as long as they are not spiced, and do not contain onions, etc, are vacuumed off their plates.

I have made and fed homemade dog food, before, and now want to switch completely to homemade. A lot of research has led me to the opinion, that even though the kibble is "grain free ", after calculating the given percentages of ingredients, it shows at least 40 to 50 percent carbohydrates that make up the remainder, and I do not believe that this is healthy for my dogs. They should get energy from protein and fat, not carbohydrates...

What I have gleaned from my reading, is that dogs do not require any carbohydrates in their diet. In fact they should not be eating carbohydrates at all.. But they do need fat, and saturated fats in particular.  Pure chicken fat/turkey fat/goose fat/beef fat/pork fat, is actually extremely healthy. (in the right quantities)

The basic mixture (for want of a better word) will be as follows :

A recommended ratio of 90 % meat to 10% organ meat, fish, eggs, comprising a protein content to between 55 and 60 % of the total "mixture"....

Fat about 25 % of total, and the rest will be veggies such as carrots, broccoli, green beans, etc, and raw pumpkin for "output" control...

I forgot to mention, everything is cooked, and then mixed and mulched...veggies must be mulched as the dog cannot chew like a ruminant, and can only gulp them whole, with no benefit. (what little there is)

Calcium needs to be added, as there are no bones in the "mixture"...

I make homemade dog biscuits with a mix of whole wheat and oat flour or oatmeal, peanut butter, an egg, and pure fat...Baked nice and crunchy, and they love them...

Regarding additional supplements...primarily Omega family...any suggestions or advice.....

There are so many differing views out there on what actually needs to be added..One simple suggestion was to use fish to balance the fat, in the same way that Calcium balances the Phosphorus in the meat... I have used BioVite as a supplement, salmon oil, and so called "balanced Omega" supplements..

What do I really need to add (except for the Calcium) ????

Our tripawd Serge will be one year old on Xmas Day, and 8 months post amp... Unfortunately he is now too big to fit into the manger in our Nativity set......lol . (A photo-op gone !!)

My good wife (as we speak) is dashing to the local Co-op, where turkey is on at 94cents/Lb. That is a good price for a lot of really healthy protein and fat....

It just occured to me....I am now a 70 yr old Executive Chef to two German Shepherds...Not what I envisaged when I retired !!!!!

Have a good weekend people

Richard

"No matter how eloquently the dog may bark, he cannot tell you that his master is poor, but honest".....Bertrand Russell

Virginia




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5 December 2014 - 9:45 am
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I have no input of value as my brain becomes fried when I try to figure out what is the best nutrition for my dogs. The information you shared is well researched......and a fun read.....thank you!

I do have loud applause for you and your wife for your commitment to give the absolute best food possible for Raven and Serge!!clap

You are a fine Chef!!

Sally and Alumni Happy Hannah and Merry Myrtle too!

Happy Hannah had a glorious additional bonus time of over one yr & two months after amp for osteo! She made me laugh everyday! Joined April's Angels after send off meal of steak, ice cream, M&Ms & deer poop!

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5 December 2014 - 1:48 pm
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Apologies folks,

The title should have read : "Any advice on homemade.......and ......supplements"... It appears as if I am offering advice, not asking for some input..

Richard

"No matter how eloquently the dog may bark, he cannot tell you that his master is poor, but honest".....Bertrand Russell

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5 December 2014 - 2:04 pm
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gandalf said
Apologies folks,

The title should have read : "Any advice on homemade.......and ......supplements"... It appears as if I am offering advice, not asking for some input..

Richard

Does anyone have experience using ground chickpea flour (hummus, without the spices), or lentils/lentil flour. Good protein sources, carbohydrate free, and could completely replace grain based flour.. I have not found any definitive statement that recommends or prohibits their use in canine recipies.

Richard

"No matter how eloquently the dog may bark, he cannot tell you that his master is poor, but honest".....Bertrand Russell

Mystic, CT
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5 December 2014 - 2:19 pm
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Hi Richard, I have been cooking Dr. Greg Ogilvies anti cancer diet for my golden retrievers since 2007 when one of my goldens developed a basosquamous carcinoma in his inner ear. I like this recipe because it was developed by a noted veterinary oncologist and became the basis for Hills Science Diet cancer formulation. Dr Olgivies fed this diet in a study of goldens with lymphoma. Those fed the diet lived 8 months longer. My golden, Logan, lived 5 years post dx. Blaze, my golden with bone cancer has been eating this since that time too.

The formula is based upon the principles that dogs do not require carbs and cancer cells thrive in a carbohydrate environment. It has moderate fat and protein levels and low levels of high fiber complex carbs, brown rice. It is nutritionally balanced to AFCO standards for dogs. The ingredients are simple, ground sirloin, beef liver, brown rice, vegetable oil, fish oil, bone meal, calcium carbonate and salt substitute. I prepare a month of meals at a time and freeze. It can be served raw or cooked.

My new golden puppy has been raised on this as all my dogs are. I can control their weight well and keep my puppy from growing too quickly. It has the benefit of reducing allergies. And I never experience recalls. 

You may want to consult with Monica Segal of Canada to develop a personalized recipe for you. She wrote the book K9 Kitchen among others and will develop nutritionally balanced recipes for all nature of special health needs. You can google her.

 

mary 

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5 December 2014 - 3:58 pm
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Thanks Mary,

Fortunately my two GSDs' are healthy, and I just want to keep it that way. Our tripawd Serge, lost his rear leg due to a birth defect... He was born without a hock, and it was amputated when he was 4 months old. 

My "mixture" is very basic, mixed to recommended ratios re: protein/fat, organ to meat, and the only ingredient I don't use is bone meal. Glad you confirmed that carbs should be avoided. I'll talk to our vet, and in the past she has been very helpful regarding supplements, etc.

I remember how amazing our older GSD Raven looked after 6 months of raw feeding, and then a diet of home made....

As good as the commercial food that I buy is supposed to be, Raven does not look anywhere near as sharp as she did.. Serge still has his shiny soft puppy coat, (even at 11 months) and he needs to be kept on the slim side. He burns fat off with no problem, as he has to work a lot harder when he is running around outside...

I'll keep you updated, and thanks for the input

Richard

"No matter how eloquently the dog may bark, he cannot tell you that his master is poor, but honest".....Bertrand Russell

The Rainbow Bridge



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6 December 2014 - 11:49 am
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Richard, you are indeed a gourmet chef to those two pups! Too cute. I really admire your determination to do it. We had a lot of success feeding raw to Jerry but when it came to Wyatt Ray , his stomach just didn't approve. After that mess, we tried to home cook for him but found that it was taking massive quantities to keep his belly satisfied (12 cups of home cooked food each day!). Since we spend most of the year in our RV, it just isn't possible to keep it up.

I take it you have a second commercial kitchen you'll be using for your operation? ;)

If there's one thing I've learned about being chefs for our dogs, is there are a million different approaches to proper home cooking nutrition, and everyone thinks their way is the best way (kinda like dog training!). We had a great Tripawd Talk Radio interview with The Dog Food Dude about his home cooking approach that you might want to listen to. His book is fantastic, lots of good ideas in it and he has extensive information about using the proper nutrients and supplements to keep dogs healthy.

It's better to hop on three legs than to limp on four.™
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Forum Posts: 106
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6 December 2014 - 12:05 pm
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jerry said
 After that mess, we tried to home cook for him but found that it was taking massive quantities to keep his belly satisfied (12 cups of home cooked food each day!). Since we spend most of the year in our RV, it just isn't possible to keep it up.

I take it you have a second commercial kitchen you'll be using for your operation? ;)

Holy Mega Quantity !!!!

Raven ate a lot, but nowhere near that "bin-full...... LOL". If that were to be the case, I'd have to do my cooking at the nearest take-out !!!

I sincerely hope that it will be a lot less !!! Thanks for the input on the Food Dude, but unless we can find a good (understanding) butcher at the local farmers market, it will be a really expensive alternative again. The supermarkets have been stopped from selling meat that has come off the shelf, as sadly, some people were buying it for themselves, and not for their animals.... I could be inventive with lentils, and chickpeas, etc, but I doubt very much that the term "Vegan" applies to German Shepherds... or any other pooch for that matter..

Have a good weekend...we are off to play outside in the new snow (again)

Richard

"No matter how eloquently the dog may bark, he cannot tell you that his master is poor, but honest".....Bertrand Russell

Livermore, CA




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6 December 2014 - 1:43 pm
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Hi Richard,

I have been making dog food for my two pugs for a year or so now.  I started because I wanted them off kibble- even a good quality kibble has lots of calories for the volume, and Obie has some sort of allergies.

I use Honest Kitchen Preference as my base and add my own protein. I used duck for a while, now I use chicken, eggs and beef in different amounts each time. I don't change radically because of Obie's allergies and Tani long ago was diagnosed with IBD (but I believe it was caused by the big name dog food I was using at the time).

I've never tried raw feeding- I was advised against it for Tani as her immune system is challenged. And lets face it- it's hard to see the direct line from wild wolf to pug!

I cook up the protein about every 6 weeks.  I make up cups of food in two week batches and freeze them. The HK base is dehydrated and takes a few min to hydrate so I like having pre-mixed. Each cup of food is measured with the right amount of HK and protein mix for each dog (they get different amounts).  I will add a little canned food and they get green beans with dinner.  The canned food lets me increase or decrease calories if I need to in the middle of a batch.

I don't know how much you would have to make for your pups.  Wyatt's 12 cups a day would fuel both pugs for 10 to 12 DAYS.  

Happy playing in the snow!

 

Karen

Tri-pug Maggie survived a 4.5 year mast cell cancer battle only to be lost to oral melanoma.

1999 to 2010

 

              Maggie's Story                  Amputation and Chemo

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6 December 2014 - 2:42 pm
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Hi Karen,

Thanks a bunch for the reply. I checked out the Honest Kitchen Pref. web site, and it actually provided a way forward for me, creating a healthy and balanced carbohydrate free mix. My philosophy professor maintained that there is no such thing as coincidence !!!!

I can use lentils and veggies as the base batch , and protein (chicken, beef, whatever) makes up the other batch... Mix them up and portion and freeze....I just need to reduce the meat quantity, to allow for the protein in the lentils. I have seen a 30% to 70% ratio of plant to animal protein suggested. From what I remember, fish should be about 5% of the animal protein, and our guys love fish, especially sardines. And we (human pawrents) love lentils, so everyone wins... 

Raven is now 5yrs old and tripawd Serge will be 1 yr old on Xmas Day, and no matter how much they complain, they won't be getting 12 cups a day (unless it comes out of the cold water tap).... Lots of trips to the Bulk Barn and the butcher, over the next few weeks..

Stay healthy all of you

Richard

"No matter how eloquently the dog may bark, he cannot tell you that his master is poor, but honest".....Bertrand Russell

Mystic, CT
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6 December 2014 - 3:13 pm
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I have been preparing Dr. Ogilvies formula for nearly 8 years. Once a month my husband and devote less than 3 hours mixing 30 lbs ground sirloin, 10 lbs ground beef liver, 16 cups cooked brown rice and the assorted oils, calcium and bone meal. I package it into 7 ounce serving portions to freeze. My goldens eat two meals per day. They are well satisfied, lean and as healthy as I can keep them.

Mary

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6 December 2014 - 4:41 pm
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rettoc625 said
I have been preparing Dr. Ogilvies formula for nearly 8 years. Once a month my husband and devote less than 3 hours mixing 30 lbs ground sirloin, 10 lbs ground beef liver, 16 cups cooked brown rice and the assorted oils, calcium and bone meal. I package it into 7 ounce serving portions to freeze. My goldens eat two meals per day. They are well satisfied, lean and as healthy as I can keep them.

Mary

I'm going to need a new seriously large cooking pot !!!...... Can you hear me Santa ????

Have a good week

Richard

"No matter how eloquently the dog may bark, he cannot tell you that his master is poor, but honest".....Bertrand Russell

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6 December 2014 - 7:46 pm
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Hello, Richard.

I feed my Golden (OSA tripawd) a home-cooked no-carb/low-carb diet, which means only yam and sweet potato, both in very low quantities.  The meat part would be: cooked chicken necks, chicken liver, chicken hearts, fish, beef tongue, beef liver, etc.  

I put in some extra calcium and olive oil after it is served on their dish (two Goldens).  Other supplements: Johnnie takes K-9 Immunity .  

Daniela

Our awesome Golden Boy was diagnosed for OSA in April 2014 in the proximal humerus, front-leg amp on 05/20/2014. Finished chemo (Carbo6) on 07/10/2014. Ongoing treatment: acupuncture + K-9 Immunity Plus ( 3chews) and home-cooked no-grain diet.   Stopped Apocaps because of liver issues.   Liver issues: controlling altered enzymes with SAM-e and Milk Thistle.  October 17:  started having seizures.  Taking fenobarbital for seizures.  April 18: started prednisone.

Toronto, Canada
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7 December 2014 - 4:53 am
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@Richard

Glad to hear that you want to go 100% homemade. If you really want to easily create scientifically complete and balanced pet food for your GSD then you need a computer program to do it. We have just released the beta version of Pet Diet Designer for Windows which now lets anyone create personalized meals (raw and/or cooked) for their cat or dog. You can balance one or more meals per day or over many days.

If you use the same supplements but change the protein source then your diet will most likely be out of balance.

As for sourcing meat in bulk, why don't you start or join a group for buying meat in quantity. If your order is large enough then the supplier will usually deliver it to you. I am from Toronto so I am not familiar with meat processing plants in PEI or New Brunswick.

@Mary

Can you post a link to Dr. Ogilivie's recipe or perhaps post it here? I would love to input the recipe to see if it is truly complete and balanced.

Rene

Make your own pet food.

http://www.petd.....signer.com

The Rainbow Bridge



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7 December 2014 - 10:27 am
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petdietdesigner said
@Richard

Glad to hear that you want to go 100% homemade. If you really want to easily create scientifically complete and balanced pet food for your GSD then you need a computer program to do it. We have just released the beta version of Pet Diet Designer for Windows which now lets anyone create personalized meals (raw and/or cooked) for their cat or dog. You can balance one or more meals per day or over many days

Hi Rene, thanks for joining us and offering your insight. I see that your software is brand new, congratulations! We would love to receive a review copy in order to review it for our Tripawds Nutrition Blog. If you would also like to write an objective background on your program and also tell us more about those who created it (for example, was it created with veterinary nutritionist guidance?) we would be happy to feature it, just contact us directly.

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