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Hello all, I am hoping you can give me some advice about a pup I recently adopted.
Her name is Gracie and she is a 5 1/2 month old Pit Bull who had a tough start in life. She was rescued from fighters when she was 10 weeks old, but by then she had already had her ears cut off w/ scissors and had received injuries resulting in a few small scars on her head.
My thoughts have always been that Pit Bulls aren't bad - but their owners sometimes are. So with that mind set, I adopted Gracie figuring I could give her all of the love she needs and to train her to be an awesome ambassador for the breed.
During the short time we've had her - (we brought her home on 7/9), she's either a perfect angel or a barking, biting, jumping devil. She doesn't bother Rocky too much - and he just pretty much ignores her, but she does pick on my little Pom mix Chloe constantly. It's the 2 females fighting over the dominate spot in the pack. I actually brought Chloe with me when I went to look at her just to see if the two dogs would get along and everything went well - until I brought her home. She has also begun biting when she is feeling playful. She will try to bite the dogs or cat when they walk by her or bite us if we try to pet or correct her.
Today we went to a cook out and since it was out in the woods, I though I would try letting her off her leash. BIG MISTAKE. My daughter (age 20) called her name, and Gracie came charging directly at her and jumped up and grabbed her shirt, started biting on it and ripped it. It was just like seeing Police dogs being trained to attack when they jump up and bite the padded arm of the "bad guy". My daughter got a scrape on her arm and a hole in her shirt.
Now I don't know what to do. I know that dogs are not disposable and when I adopted her I fully intended to have her for the rest of her life. But my first concern has to be my kids, Rocky, Chloe and Miss Kitty. I am considering returning her to the shelter. The thing is, if I do that then all of my family and friends who said all Pit Bulls are mean will be saying "I told you so" and I wouldn't be able to change any one's mind then.
I really believe that her actions aren't coming from aggression, but from the way she learned to rough house with the other dogs at the shelter. She will begin obedience classes next month, but that is still a long way away.
She really is a sweet dog and has started to bond with me already. I want to be able to show her love and stability and I don't want to let her down. She behaves really well when I have her sitting directly next to me, but it's impossible to always be directly next to her. When she's good, she's really good and I've had people comment on how well behaved she is. At home, she drags a long, light weight leash so that we can correct her easily when needed. It will be really hard for me to have a dog that has to always be tethered in some way.
I have been socializing her by taking her to the local art fair, the park, and into a couple of pet friendly stores. She really does love people and other dogs, but plays so rough, that other dogs don't want to play with her. She bites at their necks. And I would never trust her around small children for that same reason. I realize that I have only had her for a very short time, but I don't know if this is something I can fix with training or not, and I don't want to grow any more attached to her if I can't keep her. It wouldn't be fair to her. I feel as if I have to make my decision soon.
I value the opinions of the animal lovers in this community and wondered if I could get your advise on this.
Thank you so much for listening, I have to go to bed soon (it took longer to write this than I thought it would) but I will check back in the morning before I go to work.
Michelle
Hi Michelle
I'm no expert on Pit Bulls, but the advice given to Anatolian Shepherd owners who have unruly dogs is to adopt the methods of NILIF (Nothing in Life is Free) and Alpha Boot Camp--both can be found on the internet with a Google search.
My Mujde is a rescue, Anatolian-Lab mix, and when she first arrived she thought she should be the top dog. She and Cemil had a couple of fights early on, but she's relaxed into a subordinate pack-member now. I, as the leader, enforced the pecking order and didn't allow her any slack, and she figured it out pretty fast. You also have the teenage time to deal with, which I didn't. Mujde was
already 3 years old when I got her.
I think you can get through this with some work, but the Pit Bull people here can probably give you more specific advice.
Best of luck.
Mary
Cemil and mom Mary, Mujde and Radzi….appreciating and enjoying Today
Hi Michelle,
I changed the title so the pittie people will come over quicker!
I'm sorry it's not working out. Gosh, isn't that just frustrating? I personally could never take a dog back to the shelter. But I'll tell you a little secret that I'm not proud of, I took a pit mix back to the foster mom before I got Rocket. He was 6 months old. I kept him for a few days and he was an angel to us. And Comet being the difficult one couldn't be around him but I was working on it. One day, I put her in the crate and let him romp around. Well, he reacted to her growling when he walked by her and he instantly decided he wasn't going to take anything from Comet! He had a ugly nasty fit back at her while she was crated. I don't blame him for being a pit because any dog could have reacted the same way. But I couldn't chance it. I couldn't keep him. Comet had to be safe even if she was the instigator. A new dog had to be submissive (and smaller than Comet).
I know a lot of about saving dogs and dog aggression. I don't talk about it much because it was traumatizing. But I am guilty of trying to make a bad situation work. In the process, I put Comet in harm's way. I had two big mixed dogs that tried to kill her. I kept them separate for 2 years after numerous fights and stitches for both Comet and I. But then there was that one day Comet got loose...I still have a hard time recalling it because it was terrifying and I felt helpless in trying to save Comet. I still have nightmares of a little dog against two big dogs. Comet survived even though her chest was like hamburger according to my vet.
I couldn't give the other two away, they were seniors and I couldn't let anyone mistreat or not love them like I did. I sentenced them to death. It was horrible. I live with that guilt. And I live with the guilt of almost seeing Comet killed. The guilt will petrify you.
Now, I only tell you story (it's a painful story for me), because I don't want to see you in the same situation down the road. It was hellish and was only escalating. Sometimes we want to do good but sometimes it doesn't work out. I tried for years to now avail and had a horrible outcome.
Maybe an expert can help. Or a pittie rescue group would take him if you don't think it will work.
I do feel rotten for you! It sucks when they don't just instantly love each other!
Best of luck!
Comet - 1999 to 2011
She departed us unexpectedly January 23, 2011 at the age of 12 1/2.
She was born with a deformed front leg and a tripawd all of her life.
Mary,
I have been trying to use the NILIF method with Gracie. She must sit and wait until I attach her lead before exiting her crate, she sits before she gets her food, she must wait at the kitchen door until I tell her it's OK to go out into the garage before going outside etc.
Do think it's best that I choose who gets to be the dominate one between the two females, or let them work it out between themselves (as long as there's no fighting)?
Thanks for your input,
Michelle
Ge'lena,
First of all I want to thank you for sharing your very personal experience. I can tell from your post how traumatic the situation was for you. I am glad that Comet is OK.
If I choose to give Gracie back to the shelter, she would probably go to a foster home, not the shelter it's self. I signed paperwork saying that if I can't keep her I would give her back to the shelter. So it's not like she would be destroyed if I took her back.
She was adopted once before and then returned after a short time, then was fostered by one of the shelter volunteers for 2 weeks before I adopted her.
I really love her and I think she has potential. I did a lot of research on the breed prior to adopting her and was confident I was up for the challenge. But now I wonder if I'm in over my head here.
Michelle
Ok, I'm a pitbull person, but not a trainer. First let me tell you what you are experiencing is not aggression, some of them are just over hyped as pups. They have more energy than they can burn off. Get her in a training class and work with her EVERY day. At least an obedient hyper pup is easier to handle. NILF is a MUST. Don't over allow – getting on furniture, sleeping in your bed, makes her think she is equal to you. A book that helped me tremendously was The Dog Listener. Trouble had a mild case of what you describe as a pup – ask Rene or Jim she is an angel now.
Don't give up, this pup can become an acceptable pet. It is frustrating and a bit terrifying at first, but know in your heart this dog isn't trying to hurt you, you just have to play until you wear her out and teach the humans aren't the option of her play. We adopted Duke a year ago at age 5, his origininal mom was an internet friend of ours who died and we knew his background. You could be describing him as a pup. At one point Angie too considered euthanasia, but she loved him and fought and won. He has excellent obedience skills and we continue to work with him every day. Duke continues to growl when he plays, it is a bit unnerving if you don't know it and he wants to play, but we just accept it and go on. He isn't going to hurt us intentionally.
Go to PitbullTalk.com and become a member. It is one of the most wonderful, positive, places to learn about pitbulls, training, health – anything pitbull, and there are some excellent trainers who are dedicated to the breed.
Shanna & Spirit Trouble ~ Trouble gained her wings 3/16/2011, a 27 1/2 month cancer survivor, tail wagging. RIP sweetheart, you are my heart and soul. Run free at Rainbow Bridge.
The November Five - Spirits Max, Cherry, Tika, Trouble & Nova. 11/2008 - 3/2013 An era ends as Queen Nova crossed the Bridge.
Pitbullforum.com is also a great place to learn from some very knowledgeable bully owners.
Pit-bulls are (can be) crazy hyper and mouthy. They play hard, they jump they nip, they play bitey face, smash teeth together, body check, etc. They're not little dogs that simply play chase and tumble in a big ball of cute fluff. If you don't know pit bulls, their play can be intimidating and scary, and they're also very vocal.
It sounds like you have an over zealous pup who thinks she can play with the humans like she can with the dogs. I don't know your pups whole background, but if she's never been in a loving home, you need to treat her like an oversized 8 week old puppy. I have two 7 month pit bull pups right now - and while they're mixed, their play is through and through pittie play. The bigger, more obnoxious and rude the play mate, the better for them. Our old guy was like that too.
The first thing you need to do is end ALL play the second it gets out of hand. If she jumps and tries to bite your shirt and rips it (Dante did this to us constantly) game over. You walk away and leave her behind in a way that she can't get to you. It's the same as teaching bite inhibition. Once they play becomes unacceptable it ends and you leave. Soon she will learn that "When I do XYZ, everyone goes away".
How is she with treats? Does she snap them out of your hand or is she gentle? If she snaps them out of your hand (my male does/did) you can do an exercise with that, which will be helpful in play. Hold out a treat, with just enough showing that she can't actually take it. If you feel teeth yelp "Ouch" and pull the treat away. Do this until you don't feel teeth, it might take 30-40 times the first few times for her to try something else and see if it works. She'll soon get the hang of teeth = no treat. Then in play, when you yelp "Ouch" she'll realize it's because she's used teeth and it's not allowed.
One thing I'm sure you've come across in your research is that pit bulls have a high propensity to be dog aggressive. Not all will, that's for sure. And the ones that do can vary in their levels of dog aggression. It is part of the breed which is why so many Pit bull owners will advocate for never allowing pit bulls off leash, because you can't trust a pit bull (or any dog, really) not to fight one day - and even if your dog doesn't start the fight, she likely will be the one to finish it, and because of the media hype, it will ALWAYS be the pit bulls fault, regardless of what happens. It's something you need to be conscious of and take the steps to prevent.
A lot of pit bull owners also don't allow any of their dogs to be together unsupervised or left out home alone. We did with our past old guy. Our new pups will likely always be crated or separated when we can't watch them or aren't home. Just to be safe and for our beagles safety. Part of the responsibility of owning such a strong breed with such a general hatred is sometimes sacrificing things you'd do with other dogs who aren't in the media spot light and feared by the general public - like dog parks and such.
Right now your pup is right at teething age, crazy age, and challenging authority age. Keep her on a leash when meeting people. Believe me it WILL get better, and it can, if you have the patience and arm yourself with knowledge. Two months ago I had two pups that people were afraid to meet because they were crazy hyper, jumping, nipping, body slamming. At 7 months they now sit for pets, no longer try to rough house with strangers, and I have one who's got her head on my shoulder right now as I type, she lives to snuggle.
They're very smart, loyal, loving dogs after they get past the crazy age. Arm yourself with knowledge and a leash and some patience and in no time she will be a great dog. All she needs is someone who's determined to get her there.
Also invest in a flirt pole and things that give her an outlet for the play she enjoys in an appropriate way.
Good luck - they can definitely be trying as pups - I've lost many, many clothing items to these pups up until recently. They've gone from absolute terrors to incredibly well behaved dogs - at 7 months they're more consistent in their commands than my beagle was at 3 years old, and they want to desperately please us and thrive on it, it's typical of the breed, so I know your girl has it in her!
Whew, sorry for rambling. I just really want this to work for you - they can be great dogs when you make it through this stage.
I want to add one more thing, and because I feel it's VERY important I want it to have it's own post.
Many people who are strongly involved in rescue will say to give a new dog two weeks to settle in. No big trips, no hoardes of people meeting them, no nothing like that. Pitbull forum has a huge thread on it and links to the original article which basically will explain why. It's overwhelming for them and can bring out some pretty erratic behaviors and turn nice dogs into devil dogs. She hasn't bonded to you as strongly as she should yet, so you're already in a challenging position with her being an older pup coming from a shelter - pups tend to be flakey on obedience as it is, and forget their manners - nevermind a dog who's not sure who to listen to yet, or why. They should have a lot of down time. I know it feels mean to crate a dog a lot, or have them tethered, but the first few weeks it's crucial to help her settle and learn to ropes in a way that's safe and comfortable for her and for yourself. Give her time. I know you've had her for 10 days already, but you might still want to try it and see if it makes a difference.
Leave her behind when you go on big trips to pet stores, camp fires, etc, for the next two weeks. Don't let her meet too many people, or have too many people come over for her. It might make a world of difference in her behavior.
Ok. Now I promise I'm done writing novels!
Michelle,
First off, bless you for adopting Gracie. Yes, she did get a rough start in life, and with your guidance she will do great. But....
Her pawsonality reminds me so much of our Wyatt Ray. Wyatt was a chained up guard dog before we got him when he was 8 months old. All that we thought we knew about training and obedience got thrown out the window with this boy, and we had to re-learn everything. I will share a synopsis of what we have learned so far;
- Dogs like Wyatt need structure and work. He has to work for everything. When he doesn't have a job, he is bored and destructive.
- Wyatt came to us under-socialized, not knowing how to play nice with others (especially smaller, submissive dogs), or with humans. Supervised, structured socilaization in small one-on-one sessions with other dogs, as well as group classes with more dogs, have done wonders in just 2 months.
- Wyatt doesn't need love as much as he needs to know that we are in charge. He has become less aggressive and more obedient since we have firmly established this fact, through strict training and not letting him get away with anything. We have to watch ourselves so that we don't become lazy too, otherwise we're starting from scratch.
Having an "aggressive" breed like a GSD or Pittie puts us at risk of a lot of bad situations. I strongly suggest that you see a trainer who is experienced with dogs who come from Gracie's situation. Dont' mess with anyone else. Get recmmendations ASAP. The trainer we found for Wyatt specializes in GSDs and aggressive dogs, and she's done wonders for him, and for us. She worked one-on-one with him for several weeks, 2x a week, before he was allowed into her group class.
Also, my friend Sarah Wilson runs an awesome discussion forums where you can talk to highly experienced trainers: My Smart Puppy. Click on "Community" to get there. THey've helped us tremendously.
Good luck!
How is Rocky doing?
Tripawds Founders Jim and Rene
tripawds.com | tripawds.org | bemoredog.net | triday.pet
We basically took Duke as a resuce. By the time I discovered Angie had died, and located the dog, he had been kenneled for over six months. We did all the things Munco mentioned. Duke was crated all the time for about two weeks. He could see us and hear us, but he wasn't allowed to be loose in the house. Once we did let him out, he was constantly supervised. We had to be sure he understood Trouble was the Queen and he should take his lead from her. During this period we had him on a leash that had one of us attached. He went only where we went. That was followed by dragging a leash for another 2 - 4 weeks, so we could stop him from doing anything we didn't want.
It is a tedious process, but it worked well for us. The transition was a tedious one. He had to learn to trust us, to know we would protect him. It took us a full year to be able to say without hesitation he is an acceptable pet. You can do this, as Munco said - Arm yourself with knowledge and patience. You'll get there.
Shanna & Spirit Trouble ~ Trouble gained her wings 3/16/2011, a 27 1/2 month cancer survivor, tail wagging. RIP sweetheart, you are my heart and soul. Run free at Rainbow Bridge.
The November Five - Spirits Max, Cherry, Tika, Trouble & Nova. 11/2008 - 3/2013 An era ends as Queen Nova crossed the Bridge.
I've never owned a pit (although I think Jackdog may be part pittie...), but we had the same experience with our newest puppy, Stephen Colbert (he stayed in MI with Jack's dad after I moved to WA). He is a GSD/Sheltie mix and was pure hell. He would run around, nip at our heels, jump on us, bite our arms, bite some more, bite bite bite bite, and then he would bite. I know he was just, in his mind, herding his pack of sheeps, but to us, this was NOT fun. He went through an 8 week puppy course and we discovered he was actually pretty brilliant when he wasn't busy pushing the water dish away from the other puppies. He needed structure and he needed rules. I am more of a positive-reinforcement type of person, but Aaron was very good with the strictness and discipline that Colby really needed. There are many different theories to training out there, and you just need to discover which one works best for Gracie. I meet a lot of pitties, and I have never met a mean one (they all come sit on my lap and lick my face...every single one). There is hope!
<3 Laura and Jackers
Thank you for the encouragement. I think I just freaked out a bit when I saw Gracie jump and grab my daughter the way she did. I know she meant her no harm.
I will check out those Pit Bull forums and am sure to gain some much needed help and information there. She is really trying hard to be a good girl, she just doesn't know how yet, but we'll get there together. I'm not giving up on her.
I will continue to work with her regarding basic training, manners and social skills. Thankfully the trainer we will be seeing for group obedience classes does have experience with Pit Bulls. And today, she seems to be doing a little bit better with our other animals.
Maybe I have been overstimulating her by taking her everywhere with me. I was just trying to get her used to different experiences. I was going to take her camping with us this weekend, but I now think I will let her stay home and chill.
Rocky is doing really, really well and I feel so blessed to have had him as long as I have. His 1 year ampuversary is coming up on August 14. I think that is part of the reason I wanted to give Gracie a home. I just feel so grateful that Rocky is still happy and in my life and wanted to give Gracie the same chance to have a happy life. She deserves it.
Thanks again,
Michelle
I agree with everything that has been said here especially the NIL is Free! We rescued our Pitbull Kona when she was a 6 month old pup and she had been caged most of her life so she had no manners. One thing I learned from our trainer was not to play "tug of war" with Pitties until they know who's boss since this game encourages them to use their teeth and sometimes encourages aggression. Also, if she wins the game by out-tugging you then that may reinforce her dominance.
We play tug all of the time now but didn't start until we had Kona for a few months and until she understood the "leave it" command.
We also had to work hard to socialize her with other dogs and I have been unable to add another adult dog since Kona is definitely the queen bee! That is why we keep getting puppies.
Pam
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Gosh! You guys are great! Wonderful, wonderful info!
Now I feel like a heel for offering advice not knowing the breed. I just saw her little dog Chloe in pics and all I could think about was her safety. So, I hope you guys don't think too bad of me. I've had to deal with major, 'let's fight to the death' dog fights for so long and so many times (even prior to Comet – that darned Mugsy always went after my sweet chow, Snooker) Dogfights have traumatized me.
I do hope it works out. And on a happy note, I saw two beautiful pits at Petsmart yesterday that were so friendly! Their owner loved them so much. He quickly told me that one of them had to have his tail ampuated because of an infection from being in the shelter. He was worried I thought he had it docked, I guess.
Edited to add since Pam was typing at the same time...AWWWWWW! Look at the pooches!
Comet - 1999 to 2011
She departed us unexpectedly January 23, 2011 at the age of 12 1/2.
She was born with a deformed front leg and a tripawd all of her life.
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