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Elsie Pie is at the Vet
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Virginia
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20 March 2017 - 2:14 pm
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THANKS FOR THE UPDATE!! We ALL love your pooches so much! Poor Elsie Pie does look quite out of it. I imagine her mouth is going to hurt a bit too. Ugh!

Just like Kathi, I can relate to all the "moys" of being older! Regardless what the xrays show, the fact that Elsie Pie isn't as symptomatic as the xrays "say" she should be is a good way to gauge how she's doing.

And yes, now BOTH dogs can get the Royal treatment! Cannot wait to see THAT video!!

Love and hugs!

Sally and Alumni Happy Hannah and Merry Myrtle and Frankie too!

PS...love the pooty tooty stories!

Happy Hannah had a glorious additional bonus time of over one yr & two months after amp for osteo! She made me laugh everyday! Joined April's Angels after send off meal of steak, ice cream, M&Ms & deer poop!

London, UK
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20 March 2017 - 6:21 pm
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It's midnight, and Elsie has not stopped crying since we got home. That's eight hours now. She is really VERY disorientated and upset. I'm sure she's in some discomfort, but I don't think she's in pain, I think she's reacting to the meds. They gave her an opioid injection just before she left and my hunch is that it's that. My Billie had a TERRIBLE reaction to an opioid injection shortly before she died; she became psychotic, hallucinating, didn't know who I was etc. This isn't like that (Billie had a brain tumour, which is probably why she reacted so badly), but it just has a slight echo of it.

I don't think either of us are going to get much sleep, and I've got a class to teach tomorrow, plus all the preparation which I didn't do today cause I was hanging around the vets waiting for Elsie. I just wish I could get her to settle. I've tried comforting her, ignoring her. None of it makes the slightest difference. I think we've just got to wait this one out, but if anyone has any ideas, I'd love to hear them.

Meg, Mutt, aged around 8, adopted 31/12/2009. Sudden explosive right elbow fracture 06/12 (caused by IOHC), diagnosed with End Stage Arthritis 03/15, Total Elbow Replacement 08/15, problems with healing leading to skin graft & skin flap surgery, Chronic Infection leading to implant breakdown. Became a Tripawd 9th March 2016. 
Lives with Elsie Pie, & Mum, Clare, watched over by Angel Billie
My life as a MEG-A-STAR
Michigan
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20 March 2017 - 6:35 pm
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Im sorry this not a good day! I do not have any suggestions to help. You know I only have kitties right now. Teeth are very painful, did they not send you home with anything else? I remember Karen saying they sent her dogs home with pain meds for several days after having their teeth done. In humans anyway you can do ice/heat alternating.

I copied and pasted this from the fourm(http://tripawds.....fferently/)

By the time the pug girls started falling apart we always got at least a couple days of pain meds for any procedure. Last year Elly had a baby tooth pulled that hadn't fallen out and she even got Tram for a few days!

Just saying maybe it is pain. I am sure others will have better insight then I do. I feel bad for you both! 

Saying a prayer and sending pawsitive thoughts your way!

Will be watching and hoping things improve for you both!

HUGS!! and smooch to miss pie! heart 

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20 March 2017 - 6:41 pm
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Oh thank you, Holly. That's SO kind! Maybe it is pain. She is on Metacam, and she had the opioid injection right before we left, but she's not on anything extra like tramadol. Perhaps she should be. She's not panting or anything, just crying nonstop. 

Meg, Mutt, aged around 8, adopted 31/12/2009. Sudden explosive right elbow fracture 06/12 (caused by IOHC), diagnosed with End Stage Arthritis 03/15, Total Elbow Replacement 08/15, problems with healing leading to skin graft & skin flap surgery, Chronic Infection leading to implant breakdown. Became a Tripawd 9th March 2016. 
Lives with Elsie Pie, & Mum, Clare, watched over by Angel Billie
My life as a MEG-A-STAR
Michigan
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20 March 2017 - 6:43 pm
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Maybe this will help I did a quick search.

http://www.vete.....Oral-Pain/

If you ever had a toothache or one pulled. Its misery in humans so I would have to assume the same in our animals.

ugh

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20 March 2017 - 7:01 pm
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Thanks, again, Holly. That's a really helpful link. I just spoke to the emergency vet and they are confident that it's a reaction to the opioids, in which case she should settle in a few hours. They said they wouldn't give her tramadol anyway until the opioid injection had worn off. They said I could try taking her outside and also icing her jaw.

Meg, Mutt, aged around 8, adopted 31/12/2009. Sudden explosive right elbow fracture 06/12 (caused by IOHC), diagnosed with End Stage Arthritis 03/15, Total Elbow Replacement 08/15, problems with healing leading to skin graft & skin flap surgery, Chronic Infection leading to implant breakdown. Became a Tripawd 9th March 2016. 
Lives with Elsie Pie, & Mum, Clare, watched over by Angel Billie
My life as a MEG-A-STAR
Virginia
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20 March 2017 - 7:04 pm
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Darn it! Hate that she's having this reaction. I mnlw it's soooo upsetting to see this going on and on and not able to do anything about it

I hope "Nurse Donna" sees this and can give some insight into the side effects of an opioid injection and how long it will last. Holly gave some helpful links, as usual, too!

Coming out of the anesthesia znd then having the injection could definitely make her whacky. Do you have an ER Vet you could call to see when you can expect this to wear off? I have noooo clue if adding a Tramadol would make her even whackier or, if it would help settle her if she is in pain.

So, for now, I guess all we can donis stay up with you a d try and comfort YOU until she settles down.

Lots and lots of hugs.....we're here with you kiddo!!! Wish you could email us the school work that needs to be done and we coukd do it for you!!

Happy Hannah had a glorious additional bonus time of over one yr & two months after amp for osteo! She made me laugh everyday! Joined April's Angels after send off meal of steak, ice cream, M&Ms & deer poop!

Virginia
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20 March 2017 - 7:13 pm
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Just looked up some reactions to opiods.....sounds like that's what Elsie is experiencing some dysphoria Don't think I woukd add Tram unless Vet says so.

the acute setting, pure mu agonists can cause respiratory depression; however, the degree of the problem appears to be less than it is in humans and it is usually confined in dogs and cats to high doses and when given intravenously. Any opioid can result in dysphoria, but the behavior (often vocalizing) can be difficult to distinguish from pain. Attempting to console or distract an animal may aid in distinguishing between dysphoria and pain. A rule of thumb is that dysphoric animals are difficult to calm out of their agitated state, and administration of additional opioids does not help this situation, while animals in pain can usually be temporarily distracted or calmed. In humans, pure mu agonists are also known to induce hyperalgesia in some patients, and this counterintuitive phenomenon may also occur occasionally in a dog or cat.

In veterinary medicine, unlike in human medicine, opioids are uncommonly used—and arguably underused—in patients with chronic pain. As opioids gain ground as effective analgesics for chronic pain, adverse effects commonly seen in human patients might also become apparent in dogs and cats. Constipation, abnormal pain sensitivity, and effects on gastrointestinal motility may need to be addressed in veterinary patients. With judicious use of opioids in dogs and cats, veterinarians probably do not have to be concerned about dependence issues in these patients; however, it is a sad fact that clinicians have to be alert to the possibility of drug diversion for human consumption.

Remember, a multimodal approach to pain therapy is the most effective way to avoid adverse events, reduce drug dose requirements, and maximize a patient's quality of life.

Happy Hannah had a glorious additional bonus time of over one yr & two months after amp for osteo! She made me laugh everyday! Joined April's Angels after send off meal of steak, ice cream, M&Ms & deer poop!

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20 March 2017 - 7:15 pm
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I just took her outside and that did calm her down, which the vet said was a good way of testing if it was pain or an opioid reaction. She said the opioid reaction was like if you've had too much to drink and you lie down and your head starts spinning. She's crying again now she's back lying down. So basically she's drunk, she's a drunk Elsie Pie...

Meg, Mutt, aged around 8, adopted 31/12/2009. Sudden explosive right elbow fracture 06/12 (caused by IOHC), diagnosed with End Stage Arthritis 03/15, Total Elbow Replacement 08/15, problems with healing leading to skin graft & skin flap surgery, Chronic Infection leading to implant breakdown. Became a Tripawd 9th March 2016. 
Lives with Elsie Pie, & Mum, Clare, watched over by Angel Billie
My life as a MEG-A-STAR
London, UK
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20 March 2017 - 7:29 pm
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Thanks, Sally. That's extremely useful.

 A rule of thumb is that dysphoric animals are difficult to calm out of their agitated state, and administration of additional opioids does not help this situation, while animals in pain can usually be temporarily distracted or calmed.

This seems to be precisely the opposite of what the vet told me. Unless I misunderstood. Going outside definitely seemed to distract her and she stopped crying while she was walking around. So maybe it is pain? Hell. Though I think (pray) she does seem to be starting to settle, which fits with the timing the opioid wearing off. Eight to ten hours, the vet said. Pleeeeeeease...

Meg, Mutt, aged around 8, adopted 31/12/2009. Sudden explosive right elbow fracture 06/12 (caused by IOHC), diagnosed with End Stage Arthritis 03/15, Total Elbow Replacement 08/15, problems with healing leading to skin graft & skin flap surgery, Chronic Infection leading to implant breakdown. Became a Tripawd 9th March 2016. 
Lives with Elsie Pie, & Mum, Clare, watched over by Angel Billie
My life as a MEG-A-STAR
Los Angeles, CA
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20 March 2017 - 7:33 pm
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((((HUGS)))) .... Shelby whined something awful on painkillers (tramadol) and it was the worst. It was so hard to manage her pain needs and deal with the side effects.

I got no sleep for days but finally I had to shut her out of my room - knowing she would be safe and fine. I locked her out but left her some soothing music (I used Enya) and it worked. Eventually she settled. It is heartbreaking to hear them cry like that....

I also do recall Shelby had a growth removed from her ear (basically took the bottom part off) and she cried and cried... she got baby aspirin for that but I don't recall the dosage. But it was painful I assume. Perhaps Elsie Pie really is in pain like others have said.

Hang in there... it is soooo tough! 

Shelby Lynne; Jack Russell/Shiba Inu mix. Proud member of the April Angels of 2014.

October 15, 2000 to April 8, 2014

Our story: Broke rear leg in June 2013 - non-conclusive results for cancer so leg was plated and pinned. Enlarged spleen in September 2013 and had it removed and was diagnosed with Hemangiosarcoma and started chemotherapy. Became a Tripawd January 8th, 2014 and definitive Hemangiosarcoma diagnosis. Three major surgeries in 7 months and Shelby took them all like a champ only to lose her battle to cancer in her brain. We had 8 amazing extra months together and no regrets. #shelbystrong #loveofmylife

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20 March 2017 - 7:59 pm
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Sorry to hear little Miss Pie is crying. If it helps, my vet tells me to turn down the lights as it helps the pets recovery from any type of anesthetic or pain meds. 

I'm happy to hear the Megstar missed Elsie and you. The family is back together.

Hugs to all,

Kerren and Tripawd Kitty Mona

Virginia
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20 March 2017 - 8:37 pm
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Had to laugh Clare, the part of the google search that stood out was exactly what I was TRYING to highlight, but the rest of the stuff wouldn't ,"erase".' Yeah, it's a tavlet thing.

Grrrrr.....wish I could find it, but there was a post SOMEWHERE by SOMEONE who shared the difference between the vocalizations of a dog "high" on opioids, versus vocalizations from pain. There were other indicators to differentiate between pain behavior and whacky opiod behavior.

Okaaaay.....keep us posted.......every hour may show improvement.....and MAYBE you can get a bit of shut eye yourself. Is it about 2:3o am over there now? It's a little after 10:30 pm Virginia

Happy Hannah had a glorious additional bonus time of over one yr & two months after amp for osteo! She made me laugh everyday! Joined April's Angels after send off meal of steak, ice cream, M&Ms & deer poop!

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20 March 2017 - 8:39 pm
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She's pretty much settled, just the occasional whimper to keep me on my toes...  Meanwhile, I have four more students' pieces to mark, and then a three hour class in the morning... Meg is the only one who's enjoying this. Every time I open the door to let the Pie out for a soothing wander, Meg rushes past us and off down the garden, barking after the foxes.

Meg, Mutt, aged around 8, adopted 31/12/2009. Sudden explosive right elbow fracture 06/12 (caused by IOHC), diagnosed with End Stage Arthritis 03/15, Total Elbow Replacement 08/15, problems with healing leading to skin graft & skin flap surgery, Chronic Infection leading to implant breakdown. Became a Tripawd 9th March 2016. 
Lives with Elsie Pie, & Mum, Clare, watched over by Angel Billie
My life as a MEG-A-STAR
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20 March 2017 - 8:41 pm
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Thanks, Sally. Yes, it's 2.30 am. To think I'll be in Virginia before very long...

Cxxx

Meg, Mutt, aged around 8, adopted 31/12/2009. Sudden explosive right elbow fracture 06/12 (caused by IOHC), diagnosed with End Stage Arthritis 03/15, Total Elbow Replacement 08/15, problems with healing leading to skin graft & skin flap surgery, Chronic Infection leading to implant breakdown. Became a Tripawd 9th March 2016. 
Lives with Elsie Pie, & Mum, Clare, watched over by Angel Billie
My life as a MEG-A-STAR
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