TRIPAWDS: Home to 22974 Members and 2152 Blogs.
HOME » NEWS » BLOGS » FORUMS » CHAT » YOUR PRIVACY » RANDOM BLOG

Caring for a Three Legged Dog or Cat

Tripawds is your home to learn how to care for a three legged dog or cat, with answers about dog leg amputation, and cat amputation recovery from many years of member experiences.

JUMP TO FORUMS

Join The Tripawds Community

Learn how to help three legged dogs and cats in the forums below. Browse and search as a guest or register for free and get full member benefits:

Instant post approval.

Private messages to members.

Subscribe to favorite topics.

Live Chat and much more!

Please consider registering
Guest
Search
Forum Scope


Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
Register Lost password?
sp_Feed sp_PrintTopic sp_TopicIcon-c
Is this Phantom Pain??
sp_NewTopic Add Topic
Member Since:
21 January 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
1
26 January 2013 - 10:55 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Cassie went out to the backyard this morning, which requires going down 2 concrete steps onto the concrete patio, then stepping into grassy area.  We have a dog ramp set up over these 2 steps, and she went down it fine with me giving light support with towel under her body.  She didn't do her business (she hasn't been drinking much liquid), and on the way back, she hopped to the bottom of the steps and before we had the chance to reorient her toward the ramp, she started hopping up the steps.  On the first step, her one front leg left wobbled and she had to scramble up the second step.

That's when she began howling, and I mean HOWLING, in so much agony, and kept howling for what seemed like almost a minute or so.  It sounded so loud, so painful and lasted so long that our neighbor came out to his backyard and asked if we needed help with her.  While she was howling in pain, she was sitting down at the top of the steps, leaning on her good side against sliding glass door.  I was trying to calm her down from the front, and could see the surgical area on her left moving rapidly as if she was trying to move the leg she didn't have.  

Now she is back inside, on her bed, resting peacefully as if that painful howling didn't happen. I don't think she hit the surgical area or anything when she stumbled since it doesn't show any sign on the bare skin and she is not complaining any more. She is currently on 200 mg of Tram 3 times a day and 75 mg of Rimadyl twice a day, and that seemed to be keeping her mostly pain free, until this incident.

Our concern is that she may be more susceptible to be affected by phantom pain because we caught the onset of osteosarcoma early, and when she had her front left amputated 2 days ago, she was still fully using her leg with relatively minor limp.  Also, she has also been on the pain meds 1.5 weeks pre-op such that the amputation may not have provided nearly as much of pain relief as compared to a more advanced case.

We did ask the surgeon about use of Gabapentin during our pre-op consultation, but she said the use of Gaba in canine amputation is still controversial and recommended we start off with Tram/Rimadyl combination since phantom pain occurrence is relatively rare. 

Has anyone experienced something like this?  If so, what did you do about it?  Is one incident like this enough to determine what's going on?  Any feedback from Tripawds community would be much appreciated...

 

Mire, Cassie's Mom

 

On The Road


Member Since:
24 September 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
2
26 January 2013 - 11:57 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

Thanks for asking, your future forum posts will not require moderation.

We're not vets, but phantom pain is not usually onset by physical events like you describe. Being so early in her recovery, if Cassie stumbled she clearly could have experienced minor trauma to the incision site. But dogs are incredibly resilient creatures and she will surely get the hang of life on three legs soon. See our video interview with doctor Dr. Pam for more information about phantom limb pain and other common complications .

Tripawds Founders Jim and Rene
tripawds.com | tripawds.org | bemoredog.net | triday.pet

New Haven, CT
Member Since:
27 December 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
3
26 January 2013 - 5:17 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

I wonder if while she was scrambling up the ramp, if that movement triggered enough bodily movement that involved (or would have involved) some muscle or ligament work in her stump/missing leg?  While Jackson didn't have those long-howling moments, I did get the sense that when he realized there's no longer a leg there, there were brand new feelings coming from his real stump or what would have been his leg.  A sudden twist after a toy sometimes brought out a small yelp.  He suddenly realized that there were new feelings from that area and his way of expressing this weird new feeling may be the yelp.  So no real pain or imagined pain.  Just new and really funky feelings.  Maybe that's her deal?  Just a thought.

ACL tear in right hind leg 12/5/12 and scheduled ACL repair surgery 12/21/12. Pre-op xrays revealed osteosarcoma. Amputation 12/28/12.  Chemo (carboplatin) started Jan 10, 2013 and ended on April 5, for a total of 5 doses. He handled carbo like a champ!  No side effects.  We started metronomic therapy at his third chemo and have been also doing some holistic treatments.  He's a lively, playful 10 year old huskie-boarder collie and a very proud member of the Winter Warriors!  Our love. Our funny little guy!

On The Road


Member Since:
24 September 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
4
26 January 2013 - 5:27 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Hi Mire and Cassie,

Oh that had to be scary! Yikes!

Your concerns are really valid, about her being more susceptible to phantom pain . But from what we've seen here, phantom pain doesn't happen to every dog. Hopefully this was a fluke and maybe she just panicked when she couldn't find stability and realized her leg is gone. I would say that if it happens again, you might want to give your vet a call to discuss what to do.

Oh, the tramadol dose seems really high to me. I'm not a vet, but 200 mg 3x a day sounds like a lot, and unfortunately some dogs react to tramadol in weird ways. This could also have something to do with it. Is she showing signs like excessive panting or nervousness? Those are also other indications that she could be having side effects from the tramadol.

Tripawds Founders Jim and Rene
tripawds.com | tripawds.org | bemoredog.net | triday.pet

New Haven, CT
Member Since:
27 December 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
5
26 January 2013 - 5:34 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Oh, one more thing: when Jackson did bump his stump or yelp b/c of it or stare at it, I'd come over and put my hand on it.  I think it gave his nerves and brain something concrete to focus on.  Maybe next time she expresses such pain, slowly bring your hand to her stump/incision and rest it there VERY gently.  That may ease her.

ACL tear in right hind leg 12/5/12 and scheduled ACL repair surgery 12/21/12. Pre-op xrays revealed osteosarcoma. Amputation 12/28/12.  Chemo (carboplatin) started Jan 10, 2013 and ended on April 5, for a total of 5 doses. He handled carbo like a champ!  No side effects.  We started metronomic therapy at his third chemo and have been also doing some holistic treatments.  He's a lively, playful 10 year old huskie-boarder collie and a very proud member of the Winter Warriors!  Our love. Our funny little guy!

Member Since:
21 January 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
6
26 January 2013 - 6:10 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

jerry said 
Oh, the tramadol dose seems really high to me. I'm not a vet, but 200 mg 3x a day sounds like a lot, and unfortunately some dogs react to tramadol in weird ways. 

We were wondering about the same thing.  Right after she takes Trams, she pants rapidly and seems excessively hyper-alert, instead of calming her down.  When she finally puts her head down, she starts to make whining and wuffing noises, which I have never heard her do before.  Reading up on Trams, these are all noted as potential side effects.  We reduced the last dose to 150 mg instead, but about 30 minutes after that dose, a similar episode of howling in pain happened again, this time inside the house as she stood up from her bed and started to move.  She definitely did not hit anything or make jerking movement of any sort, just trying to move forward.  

She calmed down quite a bit after staying in that position for a while, then moved without any incident to another spot and settled down.  Just now, she got up on her own from that spot and walked very steadily to the family room in what seemed like a lot steadier gait than before.  It's been 5 hours since she had the last Trams, so it makes me wonder if being doozy from taking Trams is making her unstable both physically and psychologically.

We are going to keep a close eye on her reaction after she takes Trams again next time.

Member Since:
21 January 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
7
26 January 2013 - 6:15 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

fetchon3 said
Oh, one more thing: when Jackson did bump his stump or yelp b/c of it or stare at it, I'd come over and put my hand on it.  I think it gave his nerves and brain something concrete to focus on.  Maybe next time she expresses such pain, slowly bring your hand to her stump/incision and rest it there VERY gently.  That may ease her.

Funny, I didn't read your post until just now, but what you suggested was basically what I did to calm her down after the second episode this afternoon.  After she stopped howling and laid down on the carpet, I put warm compress on her incision area as we talked to her.  Not sure if it was having my hand there or us talking to her that did the trick, but she did settle down after that.  I'll keep this in mind if another episode occurs.  Thanks for sharing your experience!

New Haven, CT
Member Since:
27 December 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
8
26 January 2013 - 6:23 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Good!  Well, good in the sense that you might have found something to help her.  As for tramadol, here is what worked for us after amp: Jackson is 58lbs.  He was on 50mg tramadol with bfast and dinner, 50mg rimadyl (an NSAID) bfast and dinner, and his antibiotic at bfast and dinner.  When he was restless it was due to the ecollar.  Sadly, I cannot comment on any funky side effects of the tramadol, except that it was clear it was depressing his personality.  No panting, no other restlessness.

ACL tear in right hind leg 12/5/12 and scheduled ACL repair surgery 12/21/12. Pre-op xrays revealed osteosarcoma. Amputation 12/28/12.  Chemo (carboplatin) started Jan 10, 2013 and ended on April 5, for a total of 5 doses. He handled carbo like a champ!  No side effects.  We started metronomic therapy at his third chemo and have been also doing some holistic treatments.  He's a lively, playful 10 year old huskie-boarder collie and a very proud member of the Winter Warriors!  Our love. Our funny little guy!

Member Since:
22 January 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
9
26 January 2013 - 8:39 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Oh boy, that  does sound stressful. I'm not sure what the half-life of tramadol is but it might take a bit to work out of her system. I know how stressful it is when you don't exactly know what's going on. Hang in there.

On The Road


Member Since:
24 September 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
10
27 January 2013 - 12:04 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Oh poor baby! That's so scary to see them like that. How is she today?

I would agree that the Tramadol will take time to work it's way out of her system, it might take a day. Call your vet and ask about the best way to gradually cut it back.

We had to take our Wyatt off Tramadol much sooner than the vet originally advised when he had a big surgery 2 years ago because of effects like this. It was ironic that despite the pain he was in he was much more relaxed and out of pain without the meds.

Hang in there.

Tripawds Founders Jim and Rene
tripawds.com | tripawds.org | bemoredog.net | triday.pet

Member Since:
9 January 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
11
27 January 2013 - 6:40 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Hi there. I don't know that I have tremendously helpful insight but wanted to respond as we're going through something similar with our dog. He shrieks in pain before standing up suddenly and it is heart wrenching.  We're currently on the Gabapentin/Rimadyl combo-- our surgeon believes that the Gabapentin works better when combined with Rimadyl (or other pain killer) rather than on its own. Not sure that has totally helped but admittedly makes us feel better that we're actively doing something to help with the pain.

 

We've done ice pacs and very light massage (we're almost 2 weeks post amp) and that does seem to help.  We also got a DAP pheromone collar from our vet-- she thought it would help calm and relax him with all the other changes going on.

 

Hugs to you and Cassie,

E

Member Since:
21 January 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
12
27 January 2013 - 10:46 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

Hi Emmie, 

Thank you for sharing your experience.  I read through your other thread about Tilghman, it sounds like there are a lot of similarities between what Tilghman and Cassie are going through. It was a bit disheartening to hear that Gabapentin hasn't quite gotten ride of these agonizing episodes for Tilghman, but we are going to talk to her surgeon about it tomorrow anyway.

It sounds like Tilghman has at least been pretty good about doing his business.  Our concern is that Cassie hasn't gone pee or poo since Friday.  When we attempted to coerce her to get up and go outside this afternoon, she tried climbing up onto a couch again and when she couldn't, she started shrieking/howling and fell to the floor.

And then just now, when a pizza delivery man came to the door, she got startled, tried to jump up to bark, and started shrieking though it wasn't nearly as loud or for long as previous episodes.  Based on these 4 episodes so far, it seems to happen only when she panics.  I honestly don't think it has much to do with the amount of the underlying pain level since she doesn't even flinch when we touch her incision area.

Now we are beginning to wonder if the reason why she doesn't want to go outside to do her business is partly because she herself is weary of having to go through one of these moments.  Or maybe she is sensing the nervousness in her pawple and that's making her nervous too, because as much as I try to keep my positive composure around her, I am still fearful of causing her to agonize like that.

I don't know what to do... *deep sigh*

Grandad's Garden
Member Since:
9 December 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
13
28 January 2013 - 12:35 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

We suspected Cali had phantom pains after her front leg was removed.  My sister is a PT who worked with veterans missing limbs and suggested using a snug wrap around the incision site to provide a little bit of stimulation to the area (check with your vet first, of course) that will help "remap" what the body looks like to the brain.  Phantom pain is thought to derive from the brain thinking a body part is still there, but isn't receiving feedback signals from the part.  Helping to remind the body that the part isn't there will speed up the ability to cope with a new normal.  (Like if someone much taller than you drove your car, you would be bothered by the adjustments they made to the seat/mirrors because your muscle memory doesn't fit what the car now is adjusted to.)

 

We put Cali in a compression vest for a few months, and gradually she stopped trying to chew/lick her missing leg.

On The Road


Member Since:
24 September 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
14
28 January 2013 - 5:04 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

We put Cali in a compression vest for a few months,

That is a fantastic idea!

I'm so sorry this is still happening. I'm not a vet but this sounds like it could be phantom pain and partly her reaction to the stress of the episodes. What did the surgeon say today?

Tripawds Founders Jim and Rene
tripawds.com | tripawds.org | bemoredog.net | triday.pet

Member Since:
21 January 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
15
28 January 2013 - 9:29 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

So we called VCA hospital but her surgeon was not in today.  We talked to a vet tech instead and she was more concerned about Cassie not having peed for so long and told us to bring Cassie in to VCA or her local vet to be checked out.  Anthony stayed with her today and he said she was a lot more alert and active today and yesterday, but again had another episode of shrieking when she tried to get up on a couch again (don't know what her obsession with couch now).  

When a doctor at her local vet clinic was applying some pressure around her bladder area during her examination, apparently she finally let it go and doctor said it was a LOT. She said that if that went on for a little longer, it could have led to rapturing of bladder.  OMG!

Since we started reducing her Tramadol dosage, she seems to be doing a lot better generally.  Vet who saw her today said it'd be OK to continue reducing Tram is she doesn't seem to be having pain consistently. Cassie still gets shrieking/howling episodes but we have been applying gentle pressure on the amp area by putting our hands on every time she gets into this mode like fetching was talking about, and she eventually calms down and gets back to normal. When I think about it, this in a sense is very similar to the compression vest idea that Cali's mom suggested (thank you!). Vet didn't affirmatively recommend it but said we can give it a try to see if that helps, but only after sutures are removed.  So we have a thundershirt coming, and until she can start wearing it, we'll work with our current manual method as needed.  

Maybe it's my wishful thinking, but seems like the length of each episode is shortening every time and recovery is getting faster.  Also, as gut wrenching as it is to hear her scream like that, we are pretty much convinced now that it is more associated with her state of panic and nerves playing tricks than manifestation of physical pain. Based on this, we think the best way to eliminate these episodes faster is not through doping her more by putting her on Gabapentin but helping her recover physically and let her nerve system get used to the new normal sooner.

I guess we'll see how this theory goes over the next few days...

Forum Timezone: America/Denver
Most Users Ever Online: 946
Currently Online: schoonerandnelson, Julie_14
Guest(s) 254
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 1268
Members: 17735
Moderators: 6
Admins: 3
Forum Stats:
Groups: 4
Forums: 24
Topics: 18610
Posts: 256809
Administrators: admin, jerry, Tripawds
Tripawds is brought to you by Tripawds.
HOME » NEWS » BLOGS » FORUMS » CHAT » YOUR PRIVACY » RANDOM BLOG