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3 steps forward, 1 step backwards. Stupid drugs.
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Member Since:
15 July 2016
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7 August 2016 - 11:42 am
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Day 10 and he keeps getting slower and slower and less interested in moving.

He is 73 pounds, post amputation.  His ideal weight is probably 68 pounds to keep things easy on his remaining joints, but he's not obese.  He has been inactive since the first of July, so he's definitely using muscles that he's not used in a long time.  Plus it's 85 degrees out and we don't have AC.

  • The fentanyl patch (75mcg/hr) came off on Thursday, one week post amputation.
  • The surgeon said he should be fine with just the 300mg Gabapentin 3x a day.  Nothing else.
  • He was definitely in pain, rapid breathing a bit of whining when he tried to move that night.  Either Fentanyl withdrawal, or not enough drugs. 
  • His local vet suggested adding Tramadol back for a bit.  He can't do NSAIDs like Rimadyl and Metacam -- he's one of the few percent who has a bad liver response to NSAIDs.  We're at 50mg Tramadol, 2x a day.  Before surgery he was at 100mg Tramadol, 2x a day, but given the pain and that we were trying to keep him from moving, it's hard to judge the full effect.  We thought he handled it well.

Twice last night he woke up in the middle of the night, stood up, and just whined.  One time he laid right back down.  The other time it took me quite a while to coax him into even taking a single step and then moving onto his bed to lay back down, although the whining stopped as soon as I had turned on the light and started talking to him.  He wouldn't move, but he wasn't whining.  He just looked sad and pathetic.

Yesterday and today when he does get up, it seems like he's afraid to take the first step.  He's just more awkward than he was a few days ago.  And he's super chill.  He let me cut his toenails and brush him without even flinching -- and he's usually not a fan of that.  He's also loving massage and was stretched out, lying on his back, with all his limbs at their fullest extension, so he doesn't seem tight.  It could be he needs more drugs.  Or maybe he's looped out by Tramadol and could use less.  Or maybe a different drug altogether, maybe back to a fentanyl patch, but at a lower dose?

Any feedback on the level and variety of drugs your guys were on and for how long would be of interest to me.  Are many dogs on some level of drugs forever?  Or just primarily for one or two weeks?  I know Gabapentin is neurological and helps with phantom pain .  What's best for just achy sore muscles, i.e., when us humans would reach for the Advil or Ibubrofen?

It is Sunday.  I will talk to a few of the vets on Monday, and we go in on Tuesday to see the oncologist and get the sutures out.  But having some sense of what others have experienced may guide our conversations.  BTW, the sutures don't seem to bother him.  He never scratches and the wound looks amazing.  

Thanks for listening and sharing,

-Jenifer & Milo

P.S. Also, he seems leery of walking on our concrete sidewalk, and was super sensitive to walking on the burnt out grass (drought has done a number on our yards around here.)  Are any of these drugs known for making the bottoms of their feet sensitive?

Member Since:
31 May 2016
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7 August 2016 - 12:06 pm
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Poor Milo. Clyde still takes a Rimadyl from time to time when's he's had a big day, but I know that's not an option for your guy...definitely sounds like he needs some sort of doggy ibuprofen. Clyde (who's about the same size as Milo) got around pretty well but didn't seem super comfortable until the stitches came out. He never bothered them either and the wound healed great, I just wondered whether they pulled or something which caused him to be much more cautious than he is now. As for the not liking concrete and burnt out grass - I had the same problem at first. He didn't like the burnt lawn parts, but after a few days, got used to it. I'm super vigilant about checking that paw every time we come in to make sure nothings caught in it.

I know this isn't much help, and hopefully the vets will sort out the medication for him. Just wanted to let you know that me and Clyde are pulling for you guys, and Milo hopefully will be happily hopping around soon.

Minneapolis, MN
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7 August 2016 - 12:17 pm
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Sorry to hear this.  

My thoughts (not a vet, of course):

  • Fentanyl is a very, very strong opiod - Tramadol is also an opiod. They both work in the brain - blocking the pain receptors.  But I think Fentanyl is faster acting and, again, very strong.  
  • As he has just come off the Fentanyl and as he cannot take an NSAID, I would, personally, not hesitate to go back to 100 mg of Tramadol 2x a day OR stay at 50 mg, but every 8 hours.  I would even consider 100 mg every eight hours and then cutting back in a week or so.  Talk to your vet, but these options should be well within max dosage.  
  • Gabapentin is a different modality for pain control - it works on the nerves.  The dosage seems fine, but I know, because they are the same weight, that even though that is the frequency and dosage is what Pofi was on and it was effective, it is not max dosage - so you could talk to vet about increasing the dosage very slightly.

To me, not wanting to move and being hesitant about taking steps means he is painful and anticipating movement will cause pain, so I would want to bump it up within tolerance and your vet's advice. 

For perspective, Pofi was on Rimadyl 2 x daily, 100 mg Tramadol 3 x daily and 300 mg daily for a full two weeks prior to surgery and a full two weeks after surgery.  We then cut back to Gabapentin 200 mg 3x daily for a week and then 100 mg 3x daily for the start of week four post surgery reducing down to 2 x daily and then 1 x daily and then stopping within that fourth week.  

So I doubt Milo would need to be on pain meds forever - we are 4 months post op and using Rimadyl 1 x a day as part of his chemo regime.  If I think he has overdone it, I give him Tramadol every once in a while.

When did Milo start the Gabapentin? Right after surgery?  

Lisa, Minneapolis

On October 27, 2016, nearly 6 months after amputation, and 18 months since his cancer likely started, we lost Pofi to a recurrence of Soft Tissue Sarcoma in his spine quite suddenly.  His canine sister also succumbed to cancer on March 1, 2019 - we lavished her with our love in the interim, but life was never quite the same without her only real canine friend. Cliff kitty had to leave us, too, suddenly, in August 2019. Lucia kitty grieved all these losses, but helped us welcome two new Lurchers into our home and our lives, Shae and Barley.

Blog: Pofi, Peripheral Nerve Sheath Tumor Amputation

On The Road


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7 August 2016 - 12:26 pm
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Awww I feel bad for him, and you too, I know this is ruff. It does sound like he's in pain and reluctant to move around too much. I think that when I'm in pain, every rough bump and sensation is magnified, so I'm guessing that's what's happening when he walks on the rough grass and concrete. Talk to your vets, provide details about the symptoms and remember, only you know how he's reacting at home, they don't see that part so they can only assume that certain doses and frequencies are enough. Let them know exactly what's going on and when throughout the day.

Remember, the amount of time dogs are on pain medication can vary greatly from dog to dog. If he needs it longer, that's OK, that's why it's there. Also, seeing a certified rehab vet will do wonders to get the pain under control and help him get his sparkle back. If you'd like some guidance there just holler OK?

Tripawds Founders Jim and Rene
tripawds.com | tripawds.org | bemoredog.net | triday.pet

Member Since:
1 August 2016
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7 August 2016 - 3:02 pm
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Poor Milo. This is awful to hear. Glad you have Drs appts tomorrow. I would think they may want to start Prednisone. It's a catch 22 drug bc of risk for infection but it's great for inflammation and will also make him a bit hyper which he seems to need.  I'm not sure what to think but I would probably take him to Physical Therapist who can do massage and accupuncture.  Ruby is still not wanting to move very much but did want to hop out a few times yesterday during her wagon ride.  So this is all still new, plus she weighs way less than Milo.  Keep us posted!

Ruby and family

Virginia







Member Since:
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7 August 2016 - 3:22 pm
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Pretty much ditto everyone.

It appears that the "slowing down" maybe was in conjunction with the reduced meds?? Definitely speak with your vet and, if he agrees, get Milo back on the drugs more frequently and/or higher doses.

I kmkw it's hard not to compare Milo's recovery with others, but Milo's recovery is Milo specific!! My Happy Hannah was on her surgery drugs for three weeks. If I recall, they were reduced going towards the end of week three, but she was sfill getting them.

Most dogs generally don't need pain meds on a continuous basis after recovery.

Because every dog is different and they all react differently to pain meds, balancing the pain meds can be a tricky business during recovery.

Glad Milo is enjoying his massages!! That's a good sign! Hang in there and ket us know if adjusting pain meds helps

Hugs!

Sally and Alumni Happy Hannah and Merry Myrtle and Frankie too!.

Happy Hannah had a glorious additional bonus time of over one yr & two months after amp for osteo! She made me laugh everyday! Joined April's Angels after send off meal of steak, ice cream, M&Ms & deer poop!

Michigan
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2 April 2013
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7 August 2016 - 6:03 pm
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In your bedroom, is there carpeting or a rug?  or is the floor wood?  Just wondering if maybe Milo is afraid of slipping.  It's just 10 days, that's still early in recovery yet.  Murphy was weaning down his meds during the 2nd week, so he was still taking the Tramadol, Gabapentin & Rimadyl - just more spaced out & lower doses.  Have you tried any booties or anything when outside?  With this heat, maybe the cement is too hot for his feet? 

Donna

Donna, Glenn & Murphy 

Murphy had his right front leg amputated due to histiocytic sarcoma at 7 years old. He survived 4 years, 2 months & 1 week, only to be taken by hemangiosarcoma at 11 1/2 years 6/12/17  
Read about Murphy's Life on Three Legs

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Member Since:
15 July 2016
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7 August 2016 - 7:42 pm
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Our whole second floor is carpet, and our first floor is good for him.  We went to Home Depot the night before he came home and bought the cheapest carpet they sold in 12' rolls.  We bought a 12'x16' piece for our family room where he spends most of his time, and we bought a number of 2'x12' pieces for all of our hallways and his favorite pathways. 

Before removing the fentanyl patch I talked to the Tufts surgeon and he was confident going from 75mcg/hr fentanyl plus gabapentin, to just gabapentin would be no problem.  I thought it sounded extreme when he first said it, which is why I called and asked again.  I swear Milo was having withdrawal symptoms later that night.  After talking to my local vet, we added back Tramadol at a low level.  We popped by for a casual visit on Saturday so we could use her scale and so she could see how Milo was doing (small town stuff -- we also had to talk town politics.)  She told me then that we could increase his tramadol by 2 or 3 times if he seemed to have problems, and also recommended acupuncture down the line if he had aches and pains.  I'll also be asking the Tufts team about rehab and physical therapy.  I've identified two solid candidates so far.

So based on comments here, and other reading, and our local vets advice on Saturday, I gave him an extra Tramadol at dinner tonight.  He has gotten up a few times on his own to change spots and go sit by someone who will pet him.  He's maybe a wee bit better, although he skipped dinner for the first time since who knows when -- a month?  Long before the diagnosis.  Right now my husband and I are sitting on the front porch and he's right next to us and just gave me a bright-eyed look before rolling over (no whining.)  

Thank you everyone for the feedback.  I'll talk to his Tufts team tomorrow and get their advice on meds, and in the meantime, I think he's more comfortable with the extra and still well within safe doses.  (safe is 300mg/day at his size according to his local vet and the onco, and I've given him 150mg so far today, with 50 more planned at bedtime.)  

Why oh why do they do this stuff on Sundays?!?! 

Jenifer & Milo

Virginia







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7 August 2016 - 7:59 pm
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Glad you, and Milo, are feeling a bit more comfortable. Getting up to co e over to be petted, not whining, IMPROVEMENT!!! During this recovery phase, every little improvement is a HUGE IMPROVEMENT!!

You are doing a EXCELLENT job of caring for Milo and you are stronber than you relize!

Hugs

Sally and Alumni Happy Hannah and Merry Myrtle and Frankie too!

PS...Try some really, really yummy food, something that's usually taboo,and see if that peaks his interest.

Happy Hannah had a glorious additional bonus time of over one yr & two months after amp for osteo! She made me laugh everyday! Joined April's Angels after send off meal of steak, ice cream, M&Ms & deer poop!

Minneapolis, MN
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23 April 2016
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7 August 2016 - 8:05 pm
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Jenifer:

Every dog is different - like every human.  What works for some, is not right for others.  I'm sure your Tufts surgeon has based his prescription for Milo on his certainly extensive experience.  He may also just have the opinion that less is better.  Other doctors go the opposite way.  My surgeon said that there was no benefit to Pofi having any pain as soon as we had diagnosed and post surgery and that she preferred to err on the side of giving him more rather than less (within safe guidelines, of course).  Just different philosophies and approaches to the pain management .

I think it does sound like he is feeling a bit better and brighter with the extra Tramadol.  I'm sure he'll be hungry again in the morning after a better night's sleep.

Best wishes for Milo to keep feeling better - I am sure your Tufts team will agree on staying the course with a bit more pain management when they hear from you tomorrow.  

Lisa, Minneapolis

On October 27, 2016, nearly 6 months after amputation, and 18 months since his cancer likely started, we lost Pofi to a recurrence of Soft Tissue Sarcoma in his spine quite suddenly.  His canine sister also succumbed to cancer on March 1, 2019 - we lavished her with our love in the interim, but life was never quite the same without her only real canine friend. Cliff kitty had to leave us, too, suddenly, in August 2019. Lucia kitty grieved all these losses, but helped us welcome two new Lurchers into our home and our lives, Shae and Barley.

Blog: Pofi, Peripheral Nerve Sheath Tumor Amputation

On The Road


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8 August 2016 - 9:55 am
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We'd love to hear what Tufts recommends so keep us posted. Glad that he's getting a little bit of his sparkle back. Here's to a great week ahead!

Tripawds Founders Jim and Rene
tripawds.com | tripawds.org | bemoredog.net | triday.pet

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9 August 2016 - 5:47 pm
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Most important thing to report.... the Tufts onco came in today and told me about a website I should visit.... https://www.tripawds.com!  A surgeon or orthopedic or someone who deals with more amputations than her was giving her advice to share with me.  I told them this was already my go to!  Thank you to this whole community and know that research hospitals are recommending you, too!

Once again, goods, bads, and no ideas.

The onco approved the 100mg 2x a day Tramadol, and suggested that on Monday night we even go all the way to 150mg and see how he handled it.  Milo slept like a baby!  It made him too drowsy and lethargic in general, but to try at night and have him not move a muscle while sleeping for most of the night was the time to try it.  We backed back to 100mg 2x a day.  Plus the gabapentin still.

Milo was thrilled to be at Tufts, even though his last visit there he walked in on 4 legs and came out on 3.  Excited to ride in the car.  Hurried to the door at Tufts, then decided to hit the grass for a poop, then back to the door (not short walks!)  He had to greet everyone in the waiting room.  I struggled to control him because of the slippery floor and not wanting to knock him on his keester trying to get him away from other dogs.  He was certainly high energy which was a huge positive, so I'll forgive his lack of manners.

Tufts is in the midst of a major rehab and using trailers and wooden walkways outside.  I bet Milo logged more miles today than he has total since the surgery, and he was fine with it.  And he wanted to stick his nose in every room with people and dogs.  We found a long hallway with no distractions and got him walking at a higher clip of speed, and his gait seemed fine.

The ortho who checked him out said his back right leg is stiff (front left amputation), but has full range of motion.  He thinks Milo may have quit moving due to pain on Sat and Sun, and then tightened up so that when he would stand it would hurt.  Sort of like a spiral.  Sort of like my elderly mother who I am always nagging to get out of her chair and move -- use it or lose it!

Just now after dinner, he had a great bounce to his step and is laying in the front yard, head up, and watching the world.  

Lots and lots of good!

And some bad.  He has a fever.  It's not clear why.  His wound looks great and the sutures came out, and only a wee bit of pink. They tested for various tick borne diseases which are common place in Mass.  Just his usual ongoing low level anaplasmosis reading.  He was 103.5 when first checked, then after visiting the ortho and returning, and getting his sutures taken out and returning, he was at 103.8.  But he was down to 103.2 at dinner tonight.  We started him on Clavamox after the 103.2 number, i.e., it quit climbing on it's own.  Plus, we don't have AC and it's nasty today.

And some really bad news.  The full biopsy report came back today.  He has Giant Cell Osteosarcoma, which is a very rare form and is super-aggressive.  There is a "mitotic index" which grades the rate at which cells are replicating.  Over 10-20 is considered high and aggressive.  Milo clocked in at 40+.       

And the "no idea", likely bad but unclear.  He might have lymph node involvement which means we'd be kicked out of the clinical trial.  when they took his leg, they took the common lymph nodes at his shoulder and armpit, and both of those were clear.  That's good.  But the full biopsy report says there was a metastatic lymph node.  It's not clear which node, where, at what level.  The pathologist who did the report is on vacation, so they will have another pathologist revisit it tomorrow.  Because lymph nodes tend to become involved based on proximity to the cancer, and the nodes at the shoulder and armpit were clear, this may not kick him out, but it might.

Good:  high energy today.  Bad:  rare super-aggressive form of OSA.  No idea:  may or may not be kicked from the study.

Peace,

Jenifer & Milo

Virginia







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9 August 2016 - 8:13 pm
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Good thing Milo doesn't give a rip about any ole path reports. They might confuse him and make him think he shouldn't be feeling as good as he is!! And goodness knows, based on the way Milo was running around eagerly greeting everyone, he's feeling GREAT!! That's certainly a fact!!!

The Clavamox should take the fever down in a few days. Heck, that may even have been what was slowing him down for a few days. And leave it to Milo to have some "rare " form of whatever and to still have question marks about some things! To me, it's just further evidence that Milo is UNIQUE nad doesn't mind stepping out of the box! Nope, Milo is his own guy, full of spunk and determination and je is a strong fighter!!

Looks like you may have to take Milo for a car ride for a social outing everyday! Sounds like it lift his spirits tremendously! 🙂 This boy is ready to oawty!!way-cool

Extra hugs for Milo tonight for making js all smile!

Sally and Alumni Happy Hannah and Merry Myrtle and Frankie too!

Happy Hannah had a glorious additional bonus time of over one yr & two months after amp for osteo! She made me laugh everyday! Joined April's Angels after send off meal of steak, ice cream, M&Ms & deer poop!

Virginia







Member Since:
22 February 2013
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9 August 2016 - 8:19 pm
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Oh...And love that the site was mentioned by the "professionals"!

Happy Hannah had a glorious additional bonus time of over one yr & two months after amp for osteo! She made me laugh everyday! Joined April's Angels after send off meal of steak, ice cream, M&Ms & deer poop!

On The Road


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9 August 2016 - 9:10 pm
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Jenifer,

Wow. What a report!

First of all, it just made our hearts sing over here at Tripawds HQ to hear that Tufts is recommending us. I know other schools have, but didn't know they are. That is just such a huge honor.

I'm so glad to hear they've got his pain management under control, I knew they would!

As for the bad news...ugh. I'm sorry, nobody wants to her that. But the good thing is you have AMAZING minds working on Milo's treatment and what a huge advantage that is! Remember, prognoses are not predictions of the future, anything is pawsible. For now, keep Milo's joy in your heart and follow his lead, you can't go wrong.

P.S. Be sure to check out Pawz booties for those clinic visits, they are a lifesaver on slippery vet floors.

Tripawds Founders Jim and Rene
tripawds.com | tripawds.org | bemoredog.net | triday.pet

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