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12 year old Sheltie MCT on front leg, doc recommand amputation
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Scottsburg, IN
Member Since:
5 February 2010
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25 September 2013 - 7:06 am
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Hi Kelvin,

 

I'm Roxy's mom, the boxer Karen mentioned above.  Karen let me know there was a new MCT pup and thought I might be of some encouragement.  As she said, Roxy had a grade III MCT, it was on her front left leg as well.  Her amp was done on March 2, 2010, so we are quickly approaching 4 years since her amputation.  We did all the testing as well, ultrasounds and biopsies, just to make sure there was no evidence of MCT else where.  Of course the Grade III part was very discouraging, and her mitotic index was an 8.  My vet told me at the time that a mitotic index greater than 5 didn't bode well.  They may or may not give you that information, but I wanted to throw it in there in case they did so you would have something to compare to. 

 

So here we are.  3 years, 6 months, 23 days later.  My Roxy was a stray so we don't know exactly how old she is, but estimates are 9-10 yrs.  She's a very happy tripawd.  She STILL CHASES TENNIS BALLS!!! Despite having some problems with arthritis, tennis balls are just one thing that pup is NOT willing to give up.  She actually has a couple videos up on youtube of her playing fetch.  She is still the same crazy boxer.  Actually, Roxy was a stray and we were still trying to help her adjust to us when she had her amputation, so in all reality she has grown so much closer to us in the months since her amp.  Her personality has blossomed.  The reason I say this stuff that doesn't seem to be all that relevant to you is because I hope you understand that amputations are not personality altering, traumatic experiences for dogs.  They continue on as they were, they grow, they flourish!  They keep hopping, and loving, and snuggling and playing.  They really are amazing creatures. 

So please, don't let any concerns over how Lui Lui might feel about it be a stopper.  And regardless of what the biopsy results are, you have to do what you believe is best for your pup.  Just look at Roxy's numbers again.  Grade III MCT with a mitotic index of 8!  Statistically speaking she didn't have a snowball's chance in hell.  But here we are.  We have been blessed.  And I hope you and your family are too.  If you have any questions for me, any questions at all, please feel free to PM me.  And the best of luck to you guys.  I'll pray for guidance for you in making this difficult decision. 

 

Leslie

Member Since:
24 September 2013
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25 September 2013 - 7:25 am
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Sorry about Shooter and Maggie. They sounded like they were both amazing dogs. Roxy's story is amazing too, grade III tumor and still going strong wow.

 

A little bit of an update. After the biopsy, her wound isn't healing very well, there were bleeding and a bit of a swelling, and she didn't sleep well last night, she was in pain. The stitches were intact, but definitely a lot of fluids, looks like her leg swelled a bit too. Anyways hopefully they can fix it today, bringing her back in the afternoon.

 

One little biopsy, we are already having so much trouble, again it speaks volume of how strong all of you are.

 

One question for you nice folks, where did you get your amputations done? Was it at your main vet? or was it an referral? For me, initially we brought her to our local vet. They explained to us that, they are not experts in cancer, they can do whatever they can to "try" to get the tumor out but gave us an option to refer us to a center where they have experts in oncology, internal medicine and others. We did that, that's when we got all the testing done. However I am not very satisfy with their service, not personally at all, everytime they give us an estimate, it's the receptionist that talks to me, but all they do is copy the number the doctor gave them in a piece of paper. Everytime I have a question they usually just gave me some BS answer. I do realize they are experts in tumors, but I can't help but to think they messed up closing lui lui's biopsy wound. Anyway, do normal local vets do amputations? I do realize it is a big surgery but I was just wondering where everyone has theirs done. Is it something a normal vet can handle?

 

P.S. the oncologist is charging me a stupid 40 bucks "check-in" fee for fixing her wound....I don't even know what that means

Virginia







Member Since:
22 February 2013
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25 September 2013 - 8:24 am
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First to Roxy, WOW! What an incredible journey and wonderful, beautiful girl! Thanks for sharing!

Kelvin,really sorry about the biopsy problem. I do know that, from the experience of some here, they had some similar experiences. It apparently can be a painful process. Others with first hand experience can chime in.

Something I DO have first hand experience in is definitielyhaving a mismatch between myself and the whole 'group of 'specialists"! And I'm usually not this blatant..... but ake the switch NOW! If you have other options, gather up her records right now! You should NOT be experiencing this. Being on this site over seven months now (and continuing, knocking on wood), I have enough comparisons to make to know that we did NOT have the stellr service and care that many others here have gotten

My "group" is based out of Richmond, Virginia and they are NOT a "teaching school" but they treated you like a "product" to be processed through! Any "estimate" I got was always way off base! The only thing in "writing" was when I got the actual bill ...always higher' of course. The communication...what little there was....was for about thirty seco ds out in the waiting room with barking dogs, noisy chatter, standing in the middle. Good luck on getting a call answered by anyone other than a vet tech. And, I'm not knocking the tech at all...it was clear there job was to keep allcalls away from the onco or surgeon.

I cannot tell you how important clear and co cise communication is in this jpirney! Time after time after time, it was one more expensive test after another that I was ever told would be necessary before we coukd do "x".....and stuff do e by my vet's office...they "preferred" be done by them...for five times the cost! I will do ANYTHING for Happy Hannah, but when I'm ready to srart this treatment or that...and then, after the fact told, we need another test first....okay, let's do it...oh and then you need to bring her back for another test...and on and on and on. And I still haven't been able to get her on the metronomic I'd planned. But, my vet is going to work with anyone willing to do a co sultant basis so we can proceed.

I think most would agree that the surgery usualy needs to be done by a specialist OR a vet who has done many amps.

Anyway, as of two weeks ago, Hapoy Hannah and I "fired" them.....maybe I've shot myself in the paw ...as of now....we have no onco. Funny, I've been wanting to make a post on this but have been too upset and discouraged...and yours popped up! THANKS!

I've rambled.......make the switch now! Grust you're gut!

Please keep us posted! Hope you have other options available!

Paws crossed over here!

Sally and Happy Hannah

Happy Hannah had a glorious additional bonus time of over one yr & two months after amp for osteo! She made me laugh everyday! Joined April's Angels after send off meal of steak, ice cream, M&Ms & deer poop!

Scottsburg, IN
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5 February 2010
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25 September 2013 - 9:35 am
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I second Sally's thoughts.  If you aren't being treated right they aren't worth, don't care if they are specialists.  We stuck with our regular vet.  She's not any kind of specialist, but her personal service is amazing.  She was always patient, spent tons of time researching trying to get me answers for a disease that doesn't have very accurate information, and I can't remember how many times she called me after hours to address concerns and check on Roxy after the procedure.  I think that kind of personal service is invaluable.  It really doesn't mean much if they are technically good if they can't help you understand what's happening and help you make the best decision for your pup. 

 

Leslie

On The Road


Member Since:
24 September 2009
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25 September 2013 - 10:18 am
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First off, Leslie it is SO GREAT to see you here and read that wonderful update about Roxy! OH MY GOSH! She is just amazing. Photos, please!!!!

Meanwhile....

One question for you nice folks, where did you get your amputations done? Was it at your main vet? or was it an referral? -
I think most people here go to specialists the rest are lucky enough to have great vets like Leslie's who can handle the amputation. Here's an article we wrote about it.
 

How to Choose a Veterinarian for Amputation Surgery

Here's something else that may help:

Dr. Kay’s 12 Things to Expect from Your Vet

 

Tripawds Founders Jim and Rene
tripawds.com | tripawds.org | bemoredog.net | triday.pet

krun15
21
25 September 2013 - 11:52 am
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I think it is hugely important to have a good relationship with your vet.  Amputation surgery and cancer battles can be stressful and you need to feel confident with your team!

One of the things I treasure about my vet is that she tells me when she CAN'T handle something.  We have been with her since Maggie was about 2- so 12 or 13 years.  She did Mag's first tumor surgery, but told me she did not feel comfortable doing the amputation so she referred us to a specialist.  A surgeon did the amputation and I was very lucky again to meet an oncologist who had first hand experience because her Boston Terrier had recurring MCTs. 

I would have a frank and honest conversation with your regular vet- if you think they can handle it then maybe you should stay with them.

One note on closing the biopsy wound- my understanding is that tissues involved with a MCT are very difficult to close so that might be what you are seeing.  And MCTs can be very reactive and swell when disturbed.  Did they give Lui Lui pain meds?  We usually put the pugs on on benadryl and sometimes pepcid to protect the stomach anytime we mess with their MCTs.  However- it seems to me that a check up on a surgical procedure should be at no cost, especially if there is a problem.  Let us know how the vet visit goes today.

 

Karen

Member Since:
24 September 2013
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25 September 2013 - 12:01 pm
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Another update.

 

Another bad news, the fact that it is swollen might be because the surgery triggered the MCT to grow suddenly. So we had to leave her overnight, the report on the biopsy should come back in an hour or so, if it's low grade we will do the amputation tomorrow morning. If it's high grade...god I don't know....I am incline to still do it, which made this biopsy so pointless.......sigh....

krun15
23
25 September 2013 - 12:29 pm
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This cancer journey is tough- don't get down on yourself.  You are doing the best you can with the information you have.  And mast cell is one of the trickiest cancers to treat- our oncologist says it is one of the most difficult to deal with because it is so unpredictable.

I was thinking the swelling could be from the MCT- in my post right before your last one.  MCTs can be very reactive- I didn't mention before but my quad pug Tani has recurring MCTs- she is up to 9 now.  Last time I took two tumors off three more popped up before the path report even came back!  At that point I stopped taking them off.  She is 13 now and has been dealing with MCTs for 7 years.

I can only tell you from my experience that prognosis' are not always right- and stats are just stats.  Maggie was given 6 to 9 months and lived almost 4 years and did not pass from mast cell.  Very reactive tumors like Tani has SOMETIMES indicate a more aggressive cancer, but not always.

Search your heart and decide what is best for Lui Lui right now.  We will be here to help you and support you no matter what decision you make.

Karen

 

Virginia







Member Since:
22 February 2013
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25 September 2013 - 1:07 pm
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Sorry to hear of the cntinuing challenges for your sweet Lui Lui. There is nothing inmthis stupid disease that "plays fair"

At least they've probavy figured out what's oing on and she's being well looked after tonight.

Between Shooter, Roxy and Pug Maggie, yohave a wealth of experience to rely on.

I can oly saymthat you are doing everything possible for your girl and she nows it! As far as the biopsy, Jerry just posted a recent article where more and more vets are pushing for them in order to get the most accurate picture possible. I believe it was bh Dr. Sue Ettinger, a weel respected and knowledge Onco.

Now, try and get centered and know you'll be able to formulate a plan and get things rolling towards a good healing solution for Lui Lui. B R E A T H E.....B R E A T H E.....if you like sweets, go eat them til you puke! If you likesalty chips, go eat them 'til you puke! If you drink alcohol.... no.....wait......not til you puke!!

Please keepus posted and kw that we are all here for you! We u derstand a d we are vy our side! Now, alo g with us, se d some healing energy to our girl right now.......yeah......it's coming ner way.........BAM!........she just got the first i fusion and we're sending that enerfy all through the night!

Sally and Happy Hannah

Happy Hannah had a glorious additional bonus time of over one yr & two months after amp for osteo! She made me laugh everyday! Joined April's Angels after send off meal of steak, ice cream, M&Ms & deer poop!

Montana
Member Since:
1 February 2013
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25 September 2013 - 9:54 pm
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Hi Kelvin-

Mast cells can go up and down - histamines are the driving factor behind them. The biopsy will have irritated it. We just did an aspiration to confirm it was a Mast Cell and an ultrasound to make sure there were no signs in the liver and spleen (this is where they spread vs. the lungs for those with Osteo) and went ahead with the amp. His leg was then sent to CSU for the full biopsy to check the lymph node and get the Grade.

My vet had done amps, but referred me to a specialist because he had the more advanced equipment to cauterize the blood vessels so Shooter would lose less blood and the surgery would take less time. My vet handled all the aftercare so all the specialist did was the surgery. I agree with everyone else that if you are not happy with the specialist find another one. This is your baby and you are her advocate. I do ask that you don't sit on anything for too long so Liu Liu feels better as soon as possible. Roxy has proven that a high grade is not a death sentence, but in the end the decision is your's and what is going to be best for all of you.

I know how hard this whole thing is. Take a deep breath and know that we are here to help you in whatever way possible.

Keep us updated.

Luanne and Spirit Shooter

Spirit Shooter was a Miniature Australian Shepherd who was diagnosed with a MCT and had a LF amp 1/28/13 at 13-1/2 years old. 

Shooter crossed the Bridge on 8/28/13, his 7 month ampuversary and two weeks from his 14th birthday.

http://shooter......ipawds.com

Member Since:
24 September 2013
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16 October 2013 - 12:39 pm
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It has taken me a while to write this update.

 

It is with great sadness to inform you that Lui Lui has passed away shortly after my last post. I am still having difficulty accepting this fact, and typing this update isn't easy.

 

The biopsy did indeed irritated the MCT, it was growing at a tremendous rate. In about 1.5 day, it had spreaded to her entire left front leg. Her left front leg was double the size of her right by the time we had to put her down (With bleeding). The doc said, because of the alarming growth rate and the fact that swelling seems to have spread pass her shoulder, there wasn't any point to do amputation. Also the biopsy result showed that the MCT was indeed high grade. My sister was in another city for her internship, so we waited half a day for her to get back and we put her down the next morning. The whole family was with her and she was responsive to us as she passed. She was in pain but was active enough to be excited to see us. She passed peacefully.

 

The only positive I can take out of this is that it happened really fast. She was really only in pain for 2 days. I am extremely upset at the service provided by the oncologist. She made no menstion of that fact that there is a possibility the biopsy would irritate the MCT. I had absolutely no idea. The posts here on this thread was the first time I hear that a biopsy could make a MCT worst. I suppose it is common sense, but I really had no idea. I tried to act as quickly as possible because I know these tumors are uncontrollable, perhaps I should have taken longer to do research but there is nothing I can do to turn back the clock.

 

If we did go ahead with amputation without an biopsy, I suppose the MCT would have still spreaded and she would have to endure the pain of the amputation and MCT. I don't know. Regardless, the oncologist was very insensitive. We took her back a day after the biopsy because of the bleeding, she called in the middle of the day to tell me the biopsy result and said she would stay until 5 so if we come in before 5 to make a decision we can still ask her question. I called around 3 to tell her I will be there around 4:30, I didn't get to talk to the oncologist but the receptionist relayed the message for me and the oncologist said ok. Called again at 4 to tell her I might be 15 mins late, and receptionist tells me the oncologist had already left. I guess it wouldn't have mattered, we had all the information we need, but at the time I was very confused, I just wanted to ask as many questions as possible.

 

This has definitely left a huge hole in my life. Even though I am expecting a baby and just bought a new house, I haven't been able to get excited. I understand it's the reality, I think I will be ok eventually.

 

Anyway, I want to thank everyone on this site for viewing this thread and especially those who have replied. I wish luck to everyone here. I will definitely try to check out this site from time to time and donate, I admire everyone here for fighting such tough battles with their pets.

Virginia







Member Since:
22 February 2013
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16 October 2013 - 1:07 pm
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Ohmy no! I am so very, ver slrry! This is an incredible shock! I'm having grouble graspi g it, so I can ONLY imagi e yoj are!

I am sooooo sorry that, on top of all your grief and despair, , you had such an i se sitive onco. There are a lot of other words I'd like to use' vut I'm afraid I'd get kicked off the site.

It really does soud lie OTHING would have changed the outcome. Maybe the biopsh "irritated it", but it's CLEAR it had already made it's path into the rest of her vody. And yes, I think if you had go e ahead with the amputation, she would not have even had time to recover from the iitial trauma and pain of the surgery...all you would have done is extended her pain..rather than ner quality of life.
Just one little aside, Dr. Sue Ettnger, one of the primo oncos in tne country, recently did an article where she always wa ts a biopsy done as her preference.

I am jusg sooooo sorry. I just sit here shaki g my head wishi g the whole tripawd commuit could co e over a d hug you!

We u derstand the seco d fuess g, the wouldda', shudda'.....and we also u dersta d there s o greater waste of energy. You did EVERYTHING out of LOVE a d EVERYTHING was d e for Lui Lui's well being!! As u fortu ate and snoxki g as this is, it ended up worki g out the best way for her. She had your love surrouding her her whole life.....a d she had it when she exited this life. NOTHING can take that away!! Had ner pain been too bad, no matter what she would ot have acted excited to see you!! She cared avout nothing else ogher than tne fact that you were there loving her and that made her happy! PLEASE HOLD O TO THAT ABOVE ANYTHI G ELSE RIGHT OW okay?

We are right here beside you and, grust me, we are all crying withyou.

Lui lui would want you to remember her with a sile in your heart and with a kowing that she k ew how loved she is. She would wang you to remember that she had the best time ever being hefe withyou! Yes, you were privilege d to have her in your life...and she was privilege d to have you in ners.

She will EVER be forfotten vy us! Her life mattered and ner presence here touched us all!

Please, when you can, come back and share more wo derful memories avout your precious girl. We would love to k ow in wnat ways she "gaught" you ow to spoil her! Is she more of a couch potto or a high enerfy-get-out-of-my-way birl? Does sne like cats? Does she slobber when you give her a cookie? ?et all those memories come into your heart.....that's where Lui lui is forever.

Surrou di gyou with love and the grace of Lui Lui .......and her love,

Sally snd Happy Hannah

Happy Hannah had a glorious additional bonus time of over one yr & two months after amp for osteo! She made me laugh everyday! Joined April's Angels after send off meal of steak, ice cream, M&Ms & deer poop!

krun15
28
16 October 2013 - 2:29 pm
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Kelvin, I'm so sorry.

I know it is hard not to second guess- but that is one of the most aggressive spreads of a MCT I've ever heard of.  The biopsy may have triggered it, but any surgery, including amputation could have set it off too. Chances are with spread that fast that no matter what you did the stupid cancer would have taken your girl.  I say this because one of the things I have learned with cancer, especially mast cell cancer in dogs, is that it can be wildly unpredictable and we tend to question our decisions when things go bad.  Losing Lui Lui is hard enough, you shouldn't try and carry the extra burden of wondering 'what if'.  You loved your girl and did your best for her.  She will be waiting with tail wagging when you are re-united.

 

Lui Lui will live on in your heart and so be always by your side.

 

Karen and Spirit Maggie

Montana
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1 February 2013
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16 October 2013 - 7:10 pm
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So very sorry for your loss. Please know you did everything you could for Lui and in the end she loved you and you loved her and that is all that matters. Know we are thinking of you and wish you all the best with your baby.

Take care-
Luanne and Spirit Shooter

Spirit Shooter was a Miniature Australian Shepherd who was diagnosed with a MCT and had a LF amp 1/28/13 at 13-1/2 years old. 

Shooter crossed the Bridge on 8/28/13, his 7 month ampuversary and two weeks from his 14th birthday.

http://shooter......ipawds.com

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