Caring for a Three Legged Dog or Cat
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Here I am again. And again am not sure if it is okay to start another topic, but am desperate for a couple of answers. Opie's rally was short lived. The vet where I work can not understand why Opie's vets do not have him on Prednisone and a morphine equivalent for pain. She mentioned a Fentanyl patch? She said if Opie was a human, he would be on morphine. I called his vet (the one who did the amp), but he is out of office until Wednesday and they said they couldn't get Opie in until Friday. I told them that was unacceptable, and called the vet that took care of Opie up until his Dx of Osteosarcoma. She told me to come on in.
I told her I thought Opie was in pain and that though cutting the Deramaxx in half seems to have solved his throwing up problem, he has gotten less active and seems to hurt. I drew her attention to the plethora of tumors that Opie has grown over the past two weeks. He is covered with them. Some are as small as a pencil eraser, the biggest is surpassing tennis ball size. I knew they were not lipomas...they are dense and tight. She aspirated three of them and said that all three were cancer and all three were the same kind of cancer, though I do not think she was able to identify the cancer....Can osteosarcoma metastisize to soft tissue? I know that usually it goes to the lungs and Opie does have at least three lung mets...one very large. I have learned on this site that occasionally another bone will develop the cancer, but have not read if it is possible for bone cancer to move to soft tissue. But what is the difference? They are cancer, bone or otherwise. And if I can feel so many lumps under his skin, how many must there be deep inside where I can not feel? His gums and tongue are nice and pink. Capillary reaction is good. The vet said that Opie still has a lot of lung capacity left, so if we were just dealing with that, he could probably go on for awhile. What we don't know is how all the tumors are affecting his quality of life. Will he rally? Yet, is the hope for a rally incentive enough to subject him to what he is going through right now; understanding that I don't know what he is going through right now. I hate this part of loving a dog.
The fact that spring is starting, is not making this any easier. I have the feeling that I have when I see a dead red squirrel on the road this time of year. I always think, "Poor bastard survived the long, dark, frigid winter and now that life is looking up and there is food to eat and chicks to chase, he gets flattened by a truck tire." No dog should have to die in the spring of the year.
Joe, Opie's pop, just came home and Opie did not greet him at the door, which is a first. He did lift his head and smile and thump his tail enthusiastically. Opie's smile is classic. He reserves it for people that he really likes. He stretches his lips as wide as he can, he shows no teeth, and his eyes squint into tight little slits. The best smile ever.
Anyway, Opie is now on: Tylenol#3, Prednisone, Gabapentin 100mg. Have any of your dogs been on any of these? I know T3 is a pain reliever and Prednisone a steroid...though I do not know why it is used in dogs with lung mets. Gabapentin is a complete unknown to me.
Thanks. Opie's Mom
Of course it's OK to start this topic! And yes, Opie will Rally. As Jerry's mets progressed, he had roller coaster days, lots of ups and downs. Opie will eventually let you know once his quality of life is affected. For now, he may just need to take it easy more often.
Search the forums and you'll find a lot of discussion about sub-q mets, we assume you're speaking abour subcutaneous metastasis. Hopefully Susan (aka: tazzie) will chime in, as she has direct experience with these. Here are a couple topics she started you may want to review …
Share Your Story
Subcutaneous SubQ mets: Tazzie 2
Treatment and Recovery
Lumpy – Tazzie 2's subcutaneous mets
To answer your question, members have also reported secondary bone tumor metastasis, although rare, and – Dog forbid – spinal mets.
EDIT: I just reviewed that first topic of Tazzie's and now remember that he had osteosarcoma, which eventully metastasized subcutaneously. (Say that ten times fast!)
Tripawds Founders Jim and Rene
tripawds.com | tripawds.org | bemoredog.net | triday.pet
The best way to rally the communty to pull their collective experience base together is to start another topic requesting the information. Actually, Miss Cherry had a growth on her kidney at the time of her intial diagnosis of osteosarcoma. After the amputation and initial two chemotherapy treatments, there was discussions about additional exploratory surgery to determine exactly what kind of growth. About the same time it burst (confirmed by ultrasound testing) and Miss Cherry started dumping blood into her urine. Later she did develop small lumps in her rib area just under the skin. However, I will point out that while any reasonable prognosis at the time of her intial diagnosis would have been measured in months, she battled for 405 days before we lost her.
As long as Opie is fighting and enjoying life, keep your spirits up. Remember to treat Opie's spirit as well as body. They need to have a reason to continue.
Spirit Cherry's Dad
The prednisone may help reduce the inflammation associated with the lung mets but won't shrink the SQ mets. Pred should replace the Deramaxx because together they could cause an ulcer. Gabapentin can help with neuropathic pain although your dog probably needs closer to 300 mg 2 or 3 times daily. Some vets like to start slow and build up but the drug is safe even when mixed with other meds.
If the Tylenol works that is great but if not I would add on Tramadol 50 mg anywhere from 1-3 tabs twice daily. May cause nausea or drowsiness but most dogs tolerate it very well.
Most of the time lung mets are not painful but SQ mets can be especially if they are large. Spinal mets or bone mets are the worst and only radiation or IV pamidronate will help reduce that type of pain.
Best of luck,
Pam
I used my moderator powers to remove the tag "euthanasia". Not today.
Opie is still grinning.
Comet - 1999 to 2011
She departed us unexpectedly January 23, 2011 at the age of 12 1/2.
She was born with a deformed front leg and a tripawd all of her life.
Nancy,
My heart goes out to you and Opie... FWIW, Gabapentin worked wonders for Maggie's PRE-amputation pain...she had it afterwards too for a while... She had TERRIBLE pain prior to surgery....I was damn thankful to have the Gabapentin...nothing else was working.
Maggie, too, has little lumps here and there...several have been there for years...way prior to amp though... but I have found a couple others since amputation. I TRY to ignore them...although, that doesn't make them go away..
Thank you Pam for your information...
Hugs to you and Opie, Nancy..
XOXOXO
Tracy & Maggie
Maggie was amputated for soft tissue sarcoma 10-20-09
Maggie lost her battle with kidney disease on 8-24-13
We're cheering you on, Opie! And will be here for you for as long as you want to fight.
Holly is also a "lumpy" dog - she has been for years. And while none of her lumps are big, I often wonder if at some point this will be the next place this ugly beast rears its head. Thanks for posting this topic - all of the information is very helpful. I'm so sorry that Opie has to deal with all of this! I wish I could reach through the computer and give him a big hug. Although the visual image of his big smile warms my heart!
Sending lots of hugs and healing thoughts,
Susan and Holly
PS - Hey, Opie! Holly here. I think you need lots of extra treats. I'd definitely point that out to your mom if I were you!
Holly joined the world of tripawds on 12/29/2009. She has a big little sister, Zuzu, who idolizes Holly and tries to make all of her toys into tripawds in Holly's honor. And she's enjoying life one hop at a time!
http://anyemery.....ipawds.com
Nancy - This must be so difficult right now. Our heart goes out to you. Before Mackenzie's surgery she was on Gabapentin and Tramadol at the same time due to her high level of pain. It seemed to work ok for her and she didn't have a lot of side effects the way she did after her surgery (which I found interesting.) She also has a lot of lumps and we've had some of them aspirated but more continue to pop up - I'm at the point now where I don't want to aspirate - it just stresses me out too much.
We hope Opie sees a lot of good days ahead. Keeping our paws crossed for you and Opie. Please give him a big hug for us.
Kami (Mackenzie's Mom)
My sweet golden Mackenzie. She became my angel on Dec 29, 2010 at the age of 8 1/2 although she was always my angel from the time we brought her home. She was diagnosed with osteosarcoma in Sept 2009 and officially became a tripawd (front leg) on Nov 5, 2009. She will be forever in my heart and now she's running free with all of our other tripawd heroes. I love you Mackenzie!
Hi Opie
Darn, I hate you are having to go through this. Sorry I did not see this thread until now. As "Admin" indicated, I am the King of Lumps, as you may have noticed if you checked those posts.
Yes, OSA can and does spread to many locations other than the lungs. I don't really know why they emphasize the lungs so much. Of course that is most common, but in my short time on this site (we arrived in July), I have seen many dogs with other types of mets. But, in many cases, they get those mets around the same time as the lung mets, so the lung mets get the focus if they cause the most problem.
Other dogs, e.g., Jake and Emily, got spine mets which sound the most painful of all. But the mobility would really shut down, so it does not sound as though Opie has those.
In our case, Tazzie had a subcutaneous lump near his right hip (I have noticed 2 other dogs, including I think McGwire) with a lump in a similar location. The oncologist indicated it was extremely rare. However, other dogs on this site have had lumps that sounded pretty darn similar. Pam mentioned a St. Bernard she treated that had something like 24 SQ lumps, which never presented a big problem to the dog.
In and of itself, those SQ lumps (or other skin type lumps) should not be a big issue. Tazzie's did not cause pain or problems for a couple of months. But it grew extremely fast - doubled each week especially after we had a vet remove it originally, which may have sparked the growth. The last few weeks it went from one fruit to the next: lemon, orange, grapefruit, cantelope . . . until small watermelon at which point it started to cause pain and impair mobility. But I think that was extreme and really don't think Opie's or anyone else's will grow that fast.
But I don't think lumps should be painful unless they push on something (nerve pain) or get inflamed. That is why I was wondering what is causing Opie's pain. Tazzie's lump was highly inflamed at the end, but that was not until it reached the realm of watermelon. That is why I asked about your pain. I don't understand why lung mets or your skin lumps should be painful, unless they are inflamed or pushing on something.
We only faced this one enormous lump. Most other dogs with lumps (e.g, Shilo) had other tumors at the same time, e.g., in her organs or lungs for some dogs. It sounds like that is more typical if you have lumps in or below the skin.
Is Tylenol safe for dogs? I had the impression that Tylenol was not okay for dogs. But I guess Pam saw your email so it must be. Definitely heed her caution about the ulcers and deramaxx, especially given Opie's recent GI problems.
I cannot recommend much, but Gabapentin did seem to help. We only started that at the very end. I did not like tramadol during the day because Tazzie was still active and visiting the dog parks and started to stumble when he was running around when he was on tramadol. The Gabapentin did not make him as dozy and uncoordinated. So we used Gab during the day and tramadol (or Gab and tramadol) at night. We probably should have started Gab earlier than we did.
Oh, you are on a very low dose of Gab. My vet also started low, but it did not help until we jacked it up to 300 mg. Then it helped a lot. My guess is that is the best route for you to try: increase the Gab and see how he does.
Will be thinking of you, please keep us posted dear Opie,
Susan
Nancy
You did not mention anything about Opie's mobility in that last post. Is he having any trouble walking?
Susan
Susan brought up a good point. Tylenol should not be given to dogs with liver issues and there is a very narrow safety window on the dosage so always consult your vet first! We tend to use it as a last resort for painful conditions but now that we have Tramadol and it is a safer drug I rarely use Tylenol.
Pam
Thanks for all your info, Susan. Opie's subQs are too numerous to count. He is having trouble walking. He is not on tramadol. I suspect that two of the subQs one a bit bigger than tennis ball and moving toward softball on his neck from behind his ear and toward the back of the neck. Another large one...can only describe as a large cluster of grapes high on his right shoulder. Ope can no longer get his nose to the ground. He has been virtually bed ridden for three days. We can coax him outside and he pees, but then gets stuck in that position as if he cannot muster the energy to take his first hop. Opie also has lung mets. My theory is that he is just riddled with mets.
He seems in pain to me. I know when my mom's breast cancer metastasized and she was in her last month of life, morphine was prescribed for the pain, so I don't find Opie's situation that unusual....I mean him being in pain because I really feel like his C is everywhere.
I did go back and read both forums where you talked about Tazzie and found them really helpful.
Thanks so much for recognizing that they would help another osteosarc dog in the future...my Opie.
Nancy
PS. the tylenol 3 thing was probably my fault. they gave that to Opie when he wasn't doing that good on tramadol after his surgery.
My heart hurts and the tears can't be held back but just know we are here and you're not alone.
[Image Can Not Be Found]
Comet - 1999 to 2011
She departed us unexpectedly January 23, 2011 at the age of 12 1/2.
She was born with a deformed front leg and a tripawd all of her life.
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