Caring for a Three Legged Dog or Cat
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I know I need to not dwell. That I did everything that I could with the information that I had to help Spencer have the best life possible. I get that.
But I need to know... did my decision to do the 2nd chemo likely end his life sooner than would have happened had we not done it? I guess partly I want to know because I want to be better equipped with what to do if I should ever have another dog go through this (and since Spencer was my 2nd dog to get cancer, my 3rd pet to get it... well, I know that it is always possible it can happen again).
For those who don't know Spencer's story... In August 2011 he was diagnosed with grade 3 fibrosarcoma. We had his leg amputated one week later. About a week after his stitches were removed he started chemo. (he got MRSA in between there) That chemo was originally to be 12 weeks - 3 week cycles. Week 1 adria and cytox, weeks 2 and 3 vincristine. At about week 3 we found out he had a heart problem, so swapped to 15 weeks with week 1 being mytox and weeks 2 and 3 still vincristine. He finished up the chemo and seemed to be doing GREAT. Didn't seem sick at all. About 2 weeks later we found out he had lung mets and started him on carboplatin every 3 weeks.
He had his 3rd dose of carboplatin on 2/16. At that time his bloodwork was all fine. On 2/26 he seemed to have less energy. On 2/27 he woke up coughing up a little blood and quickly went down hill. That morning he came down the stairs on his own. less than 2 hours he had to be carried to my car because he couldn't stand up at all. We went to the ER vet. His platelets were way down and his chest was full of fluid - they said most likely blood. The ER vet said that he could try to draw off some of the fluid and it might buy Spencer a few hours to maybe even a week; but it wouldn't be the quality of time that we had up until just the day before. We decided to have him put to sleep.
So... the carbo can cause lower platelet counts - right? He had just had a dose 1.5 weeks before everything went down hill. I KNOW that he was going to die from the cancer eventually; but is is likely that doing the carbo actually shortened his life rather than extending it? Or could the cancer have made his platelet count drop and him bleed into his chest like that?
Jac and Angel Spencer. Spencer was 5.25 years old. He fought a grade 3 fibrosarcoma, started on his shoulder. Left front leg amputated in August 2011. 15 weeks of chemo finished 12/22/11 (mytox and adria). Lung mets found on x-rays 12/28/11. Started carboplatin 1/6/12. Went to Heaven on 2/27/12. I miss him like crazy every day. See his blog here: http://spencer.tripawds.com/
theres no way to know the answer to that question... you did everything the best way you knew and with nothing but Spencers well being in mind. You did nothing wrong, and I know how the second guessing game goes, but nobody wins that game. I have been tempted by that game myself, I didnt give Cooper chemo and it would be so easy to wonder , would Cooper have lived longer had I given him chemo? But again nobody wins that game. You did the very best you could with the tools available to you, and that is ok in my book. If you ever go through this again, you still wont know the magic answer, but you will again do all that you can. Do you know how many people when face with osteo sarcoma say - its just a dog and have them put down? It would scare you. You did good and Spencer knows it...
Coopsdad
Coopsdad/ Kenneth Blackburn
http://cooper.t.....ipawds.com
the monkeydogs only THINK they have invaded the tripawd state
It's hard to not second guess. I wonder the same... What if we'd started with the Palladia soone while the mets were tiny and skipped over the carbo? Or what if we'd started the artemisinin right away and skipped the chemo/MP all together?? Nobody knows. You can't beat yourself up. Like Coopsdad said, you did what you thought was best with what you knew at the time.
Having said that... I've never heard of bleeding out like that as being a possible side effect of carbo. I could be wrong, cuz I'm no expert, but I don't remember ever hearing of that. That is however, something that is caused by cancer. It sounds to me like his cancer was more advanced than anyone knew.
Try to focus on the happy memories! Hope you find some peace,
Jackie, Angel Abby's mom
Abby: Aug 1, 2009 – Jan 10, 2012. Our beautiful rescue pup lived LARGE with osteosarcoma for 15 months – half her way-too-short life. I think our "halflistic" approach (mixing traditional meds + supplements) helped her thrive. (PM me for details. I'm happy to help.) She had lung mets for over a year. They took her from us in the end, but they cannot take her spirit! She will live forever in our hearts. She loved the beach and giving kisses and going to In-N-Out for a Flying Dutchman. Tripawds blog, and a more detailed blog here. Please also check out my novel, What the Dog Ate. Now also in paperback! Purchase it at Amazon via Tripawds and help support Tripawds!
I'm so sorry you're going through the pain of loss and second guessing decisions. We all do it, but you know it's not healthy. Wait - fill your heart with wonderful memories and heal. Then, after some time has passed, do all the research you want. Right now you have every right to hurt and grieve. Don't complicate it with guilt. We're all doing the best we can with the information we have. Spencer was lucky to have you in his life.
Hugs and Slobbers,
Judy and Baby
I had a similar situation just recently (2/7/12) with my girl Christy, my beautiful Husky. She had osteo and her front leg amputated (12/10). We did 3 rounds of carboplatin immediately after the amp- and then the lung mets came 1 year later (11/11). We started her on metronomic (daily) chemo pills at home. She did good for about 2 months, then 1 night she was acting as if she had bloat = breathing heavy, hunching over like a bad tummy ache, whining, but no bloated tummy.
I took her to the vet the next a.m., and they said she looked ok. She did seem a bit better right then. Later that night, she was acting worse and I took her to an emergency ER vet. They took x-rays and an ultrasound and she had fluid (blood, ??) in her abdomen, where it should not have been. She threw up some blood at the vet also when the moved her into the room where we said goodbye. They didnt know where the rupture was, and exploratory surgery wasnt a great option. She had been through enough and we let her go - after 2 horrible hours of trying to make the right decision for her. With the mets appearing she may have had 9 months left, or she might had gone into remission, we will never know now, but recovering from exploratory abdominal surgery would have been tough on her. She was only 9.
She had had some blood in her stool a week earlier and we took her off the daily meds for 1 week to let her tummy/intestines or whatever was bleeding heal. Maybe it wasnt long enough, as it doesnt appear she healed. Its such a hard call, and I feel guilty too, and still do today. Maybe the chemo killed her by eating away her insides. (All chemo is is a calculated dose of poison, which we hope kills the bad, and leaves the good.) Maybe it didnt and it was a fluke. I dont know, but I cry myself to sleep sometimes wondering. In doing my research I saw cancer dogs dying of things other than the cancer itself, and I never understood it. Now I do, but its too late for my girl. All we can do is try our best - and do our research and listen to the experts. AND PRAY FOR A CURE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <img class="spSmiley" title="crying" onclick="spjEdInsertSmiley('icon_cry.gif', 'crying', 'https://tripawds.com/wp-content/sp-resources/forum-smileys/', '
');" src="/wp-content/sp-resources/forum-smileys/icon_cry.gif" alt="crying" />
I cannot fault you for your doubt.
We lost Zeus' brother, Merlin, two years ago and we still have regrets to this day. He had a partial tear of his ACL. His vet tried the moderate approach of waiting to see if it would heal itself. We were impatient and couldn't bear to see him hurting so we went to a specialist who convinced us that these injuries rarely heal and we should operate. He had TPLO surgery and did fine for two weeks before he quit eating and developed a cough. They thought he might have caught Kennel Cough and put him on antibiotics. He then became terribly ill, lost coordination and stumbled "drunk" instead of walking, had difficulty breathing and spent two days in an oxygen tent. They thought a blood clot had gone to his lungs and impeded blood flow to his hind legs. His breathing improved a bit and he came home but never got his coordination back, never really ate again and was miserable. At that point, an internist felt that it was either liver failure or cancer, but he was too sick to survive anesthesia to get a biopsy and confirm. Eventually his breathing became labored again and we decided to let him go. The vets felt that there was probably an underlying cancer that "reared its head" while his body was weakened from the surgery.
To this day we wonder if we had not chosen to proceed with the TPLO surgery whether the illness would have stayed dormant for awhile. And, when it did show up whether it wouldn't have gone gang-busters if his immune system wasn't weakened and maybe we could have treated it....
My heart still hurts over this. Even now, two years later, I cry as I type this. I am so sorry that you have doubts, but I do understand. I really do feel that you did everything that you could for Spencer. I hope that one day you have peace.
Lisa
Zeus was a Husky mix diagnosed with Osteosarcoma at age 11. A visible lung met and suspicious spot on his liver meant a poor prognosis-six weeks was our vet's best guess. We decided to fight for our boy and his right front leg was amputated on 12/1/11. We did six rounds of chemo, changed his diet and spoiled him completely rotten. We were blessed with 10 great months after diagnosis. Against the odds, the lung met remained a single met and grew very little over those months. A wonderful furbaby with the most gentle spirit, he fought with a strength that we never imagined he possessed. We have no regrets...
http://zeuspod......pawds.com/
after all spencer had been through, his body was worn out - could it have been the chemo, well, maybe. but if you hadn't opted for chemo and he then passed, you'd think - should i have done chemo?? stop trying to get closure by taking responsibility for something you will never get an answer to. there will always be what ifs. remember how special spencer was, how much he loved you and the family and how strong he was throughout his life. it's so awful to lose them, but (like judy said) stop with the guilt, it isn't productive. just our two cents....
charon & spirit gayle
Life is good, so very, very good!!! Gayle enjoyed each and every moment of each and every wonderful day (naps included). She left this world December 12, 2011 – off on a new adventure.
Love Never Ends
I hope Pam sees this thread. I am not an expert, but I can tell you what I would suspect. It would make me wonder too, but I would wonder if he had cancer in his spleen or liver. I can't remember which one (or maybe it is both) that when it ruptures they bleed out. It has happened to a couple of dogs that I can recall. I don't think it had to do with the chemo, it had to do with the cancer.
I understand you fact finding mission, you want to be knowledgeable for any possible future events. The only way to be sure in this case is an autopsy. Since that isn't an option now, a guess from experts will give you (most probably) different ideas.
So...I know that the white blood cell count lowers, but they don't bleed out like that unless there is a rupture somewhere. That would most likely come from cancer, my laymans guess.
Elizabeth, Sammy's mom
Diagnosed with osteosarcoma in the right front leg 8/23/10,
leg fractured 8/27/10,
leg amputated 8/30/10
http://sammyand.....pawds.com/
I couldn't begin to say how special Sammy is to us. Living and laughing with and loving this wonderful boy is priceless.
It's so hard not to second guess everything our pups went through in their final days, and that is a normal healthy part of the grieving process. And it's so easy to drive ourselves crazy wondering. It could have been any number of things.
Unfortunately, as Elizabeth said, the only way to know for sure is an autopsy/necropsy. So if there's one lesson to be learned next time around for your future animals, you may want to ensure that one is ordered after their death. I hope this knowledge can bring you comfort as you cope with Spencer's loss.
I hope this helps even just a little. We all understand how tough grief can be.
Tripawds Founders Jim and Rene
tripawds.com | tripawds.org | bemoredog.net | triday.pet
I think it's in our nature to look back and wonder if we could have done something more to save our pups. Like Charon said, if you hadn't done the chemo, you'd be wondering "should I have?"... I think the second-guessing and wondering "what if" is a part of the grieving process.
We like to think that in dealing with cancer (or with life, for that matter) that we have some control over the eventual outcome, however it's simply an illusion. We can battle cancer and not win, or we can battle cancer and win, and it has nothing to do with how we fight the battle, it's simply the luck of the draw. So while it's easy to get caught up in the guilt and the what-if game, it will only make things worse. You did EVERYTHING you could for Spencer. It wasn't your fault he got cancer, and it wasn't your fault he died. And if you want your heart to begin to heal, you're going to have to stop blaming yourself for this.
Micki, Rio's momma
 |
~ ~ Rio ~ ~ |
WELL said Micki, thank you.
Tripawds Founders Jim and Rene
tripawds.com | tripawds.org | bemoredog.net | triday.pet
Carboplatin can cause low platelets but rarely bleeding. Tazzie's platelet count often went as low as 26,000 (normal is between 150,000 and 300,00 and bleeding can occur at 60,000) but she never bled.
More likely the mets in the lungs started bleeding spontaneously because that is what they do and the platelets were consumed trying to clot the blood.
You did everything you could with Spencer but his cancer was quite aggressive!
Pam
I know the guilt and doubts are horrendous right now but in time they will pass and you will realise that you did everything you could with what you knew and no amount of "what ifs" can change what happened and bring Spencer back. YOU DID EVERYTHING RIGHT and Spencer loves you for that. Try to focus on the memories and not his death I know that is easier said than done but you can do it and in time you will feel better about what you done you just need to put those doubts and guilt etc away and not dwell on them cause it wont help at all, it just makes you feel worse and none of it will bring Spencer back.
We are all here for you always
Hugs
Sarah
etgayle said
after all spencer had been through, his body was worn out - could it have been the chemo, well, maybe. but if you hadn't opted for chemo and he then passed, you'd think - should i have done chemo?? stop trying to get closure by taking responsibility for something you will never get an answer to. there will always be what ifs. remember how special spencer was, how much he loved you and the family and how strong he was throughout his life. it's so awful to lose them, but (like judy said) stop with the guilt, it isn't productive. just our two cents....
charon & spirit gayle
I cannot say it any better than Charon just did. I agree with her 100%. I cannot relate to the chemo what if's, as I haven't done that with Maggie...but I could have what if's myself going the other way, couldn't I, when it comes time for Maggie? I recently lost my father...the what if's were (and still are to some degree) rampant in me! So I can relate...but in the end....you did the best you could for Spencer. The second guessing yourself will subside, to some degree, with time.
Take care,
Tracy, Maggie's Mom
Maggie was amputated for soft tissue sarcoma 10-20-09
Maggie lost her battle with kidney disease on 8-24-13
Jac, I don't know if the carbo could have caused Spencer to bleed out like that. I do know that we were never warned of that as a complication and our experience with it was very good. Does your vet consider it a possibility?
Our Sammy sailed through six rounds of carboplatin. The day after chemo, he might spit up once and be slightly tired — but other than that, he was rarin' to go. Every x-ray was negative for mets. Every CBC was great.
So, we were feeling very lucky. We really hoped we would be among the small percentage that seems to beat the disease. Then, 11 months post-amputation, he collapsed coming out of the water. After several missteps we discovered he had osteosarcoma in the other front leg. The thing that got me was that he still had no lung mets.
It seems that he never had any lung mets, although we quit subjecting him to x-rays after we knew about the cancer in his other leg. I still don't understand. Everyone said that lung mets were the thing to worry about. Instead, cancer sneaked into his other leg. Hard for us to understand — impossible to accept.
By all means research carbo and other treatments for cancer. Knowing what killed Spencer might help you if you have another dog with cancer. But the truth is: cancer is strikes from all sides. It is so unpredictable that it is impossible to be absolutely sure about any treatment. Medicines or treatments that save one dog may harm another.
If we have another dog with cancer, would we use carboplatin? Probably. Our vets at the University of illinois and our local vet thought it was the best choice for us. All any of us can do is listen to the professionals and act with best intentions and lots of love. Is it enough? Not for most of us.
I hope you find peace in the knowledge that you tried to save him and he knew that. Let the joyful memories comfort you.
Beth and Spirit Smilin' Sammy
Smilin' Sammy, March 16, 2004 – Dec. 5, 2011
Golden retriever, diagnosed with osteosarcoma in September 2010 — right front leg amputated November 2010. He fought valiantly to stay with us; but a second diagnosis of osteosarcoma, this time in his left front leg, was more than our golden warrior could overcome. He loved his pack — and everyone else he met.
We loved him even more.
Thanks for the pennies, Sammy. They helped.
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