Caring for a Three Legged Dog or Cat
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So I am posting this here hopefully make people think a bit if they encounter some closed minded situations. I had gotten the cancer book way last year before I even found this site and I found it very helpful from the getgo, and would have been even better if I found it before I did double the research of different approaches. would have saved me lots of time..lol
So my disappointment is after reading the book, some sections more than others, and after researching alot on my own. Why is it after visiting 3 separate hospitals/universities/ specialty centers (and various oncologist) do oncologist not approach canine cancer as a whole?
Most recently I brought up a couple things, to my newest trip out of state, while my concern was anesthesia and the approach that was going to be taken for my girl, seemed very quickly dismissed, even after I brought up the studies that were out there showing various types could contribute to increase metastases .. quickly dismissed... now the most recent was at a teaching hospital.. Which again, disappointing, these guys should be on the highest info of the up and up approached, good -bad and indifferent. Though I felt informed on these subjects I did not fully educate myself on "every" anesthetic research and approach that I felt I could make a educated argument, other than referencing "cancer guides".
Or the quickness of one vet (student/intern/staff) to do the exact opposite of another doctor that did the same treatment? I am having a really hard time with this. Or dismissing vitamin deficient issues in dogs, because "that doesn't happen"..hmmm.... the dog has cancer.. do you think "maybe" their nutrient and vitamin capacity isn't what it should be. Or did you know that anesthesia is not toxic...hmm guess its different in dogs than in people.(joke) Don't get me wrong, some things like anesthesia are inevitable but a statement like that is very insulting to ones intelligence.(again sorry.. being a bit of a smarty pants..feeling annoyed)
The cancer guide is compiled of an array of information combining multiple areas of approaching this terrible disease which is bye extensive results and experience these vets have encountered or gathered research...at least it seems that way
Why is it not a mandatory read for Vet students? If nothing more to be exposed to a total Full body approach and understand things that maybe are norm in their text books but by life experience theres other ways that could help the patient better or more thoroughly.
Or why are oncologist not offering treatment that might be available that they may not offer themselves but are a possibility, maybe unconventional, leave it up to the owner to decide, its their job to give options. Or why an option out there is not a possibility. Like in my case I found the cyberknife.. didn't even know it existed, unfortunately it wasn't an option for my girls STS, but without me advocating I would have never known. Or in the end I did the ECT, couldn't even get anyone to help me gather info before I decided to drive out of state, I called all over the country to see if it was a possibility for me girl, do you know how hard it is for an "owner" to get a hold of another vet if your not a vet to just learn more about it to even see if attainable approach. I did lots of praying and unfortunately probably annoyed a couple of onco's with too many questions for someone that's not their patient. But I had to think, well hate me and be annoyed, its for the life of my girl because no one is helping me.. (but I still felt bad and one wonderful person answered almost everything for me before I reached to far.. still eternally grateful to someone in washington state)
No im not a spokes person, but to not look at all possibilities or to not acknowledge that certain drugs will/ can affect your pet differently because of the cancer seems irresponsible and naive to me.
sorry for venting. But my last encounter with residents/interns had be extremely hesitant in thought process beyond a page in a text book!!
Ok ranted enough.
Angel Neka
7/4/2003-4/5/2016
2.5yr 3x cancer warrior survivor
I think the exact same way for vets and human doctors! I don't have an answer but I do feel exactly what you are saying. I'm not sure where you are located, but if you can find a "team" of vets close to you that work together to treat the whole pet that might be a good option. When our first dog Jake was diagnosed, the onco dismissed chinese medicine and holistic treatments for him (but she did end up prescribing Yunnan Baiyao at the end). When Roscoe was diagnosed, we went back to the same onco and she now has a holistic vet that works with her and they'll double team the treatment.
I think pet oncologists need patient advocates in their centers.
Mom to Tripawd Angels Jake (2001-2014) and Rosco (2012-2015) and Tripawd Tanner. “Whatever happens tomorrow, we had today; and I'll always remember it”
Venting is good.
I think some of it has to do with when the vet was trained, if the vet is up-to-date on research, resources in the community (there are no vet oncologists where I live), etc.
My vet was a bit stumped on what caused my cat's lump. He systematically tested and ruled things out. He was going to remove it and then consulted others and finally suspected vaccine associated sarcoma (cancer caused by a vacccination). He amputated after consultating with the "big city" vet surgeons. All of this was done in less than a week. I know of other who had to go to 3 different vets to get a diagnosis and it took many months before tumour removal or amputation. By then the margins were too narrow and radiation or chemo was required. The difference was that my vet researched and consulted with others. He wanted to save Mona's life so was persistent.
We can't expect them to know everything but I appreciate it if they kept up to date with the latest research and options.
Personally I don't know of the cancer book but it's obvious it helped you and you did a tremendous job of being an advocate for your girl.
One thing that I'm cautious about is getting on the holistic or supplement band wagon unless the product is prescribed and supplied by a holistic vet. Cats metabolize drugs and compounds differently. For example researchers know curcumin has anti-cancer properties, however the way it is metabolized through the liver in dogs and humans renders it ineffective against cancer cells in the body. So they thought it might prove effective in cats. The research found it was effective in cats but the amount needed was so high it would be impossible to administer. I cannot count the number of people who have recommended tumeric (curcumin) based on anecdotal information. I'm sure many vets have patients who are using or want to try other remedies that the vet is not familiar with.
I think the best we can do is research, ask good questions, and then seek out the vets that we can work well with. Unfortunately all this takes money and time. Time that our sick pet may not have.
Thanks for starting this topic. It's a lot to think about.
Kerren and Tripawd Mona
Yes, I agree in the human medical world it is the same way. I do kind of feel though that because of the specialty of cancer and the limited resources every bit should matter. The onco intern/ resident seemed fairly knew Id say maybe 2 -3 yrs im guessing based on her persona. The actual students, Id expect more out of as well. My regular onco.. is about 10yrs practicing. I'm in a pretty big medical hub of the Midwest, Chicago area. I've driven in a 3 mile radius to visit onco's and research. I'm not saying there's no one around here doing natural, I can find an individual holistic vet, I'm saying the approach is lacking immencely Ive actually liked my regular onco, but its not without saying its because I've brought to the table ideas and approaches, he's not objected and has given insight, but nothing new, just this is how its done.
For example my surgeon, when I had asked about a prosthetic, he wasn't real keen on the idea, and said most dogs don't like to use them, I asked if its because the dogs don't or the owners weren't persistent. Im a rehab therapist so that's right down my alley, I do this all day. I feel he took this into consideration and took that extra step called a prosthetic place, spoke extra with the radiologist to see if margins could be clean... And this was just because I wanted options not even a final decision. In the end I chose otherwise, but I almost did it. the determining factor was risking dirty margins and having to repeat amputation. But the effort and attentiveness to me was priceless. I mean really priceless.
Like I said this last experience I think pushed my buttons more than just me doing the work. I had a lot of contradicting information from staff that was present in the same facility. The original onco that saw her was amazing... it all fell apart the second time around. So it just got me really thinking after I was referencing some things from the book and time and again, the response is well... we don't know those things for sure.
A lot of chaos.
Angel Neka
7/4/2003-4/5/2016
2.5yr 3x cancer warrior survivor
I loved my vet, the one that moved to K-state to teach 4th year students. I would bring something to her she would research get back to me, call other vets/oncologists since none in this area. She wasn't against eastern med she said upfront she didn't know alot about it. I asked her if I could give certain things she would again look up.
We have 2 holistic vets at this time in this area, one in a vet clinic that is really expensive and the other is in her own practice at the time I didn't know about her or I would have consulted her. Found out towards the end of the journey with Sassy by then it was too late.
I did a lot of research, got info from here.
Thank you for starting this topic
Michelle & Angel Sassy
Sassy is a proud member of the Winter Warriors. Live long, & strong Winter Warriors.
sassysugarbear.tripawds.com
07/26/2006 - Sassy earned her wings 08/20/2013
05/04/2006 - Bosch, Sassy's pal, earned his wings 03/29/19 fought cancer for 4 months.
"You aren't doing it TO her, you are doing it FOR her. Give her a chance at life."
Yeah.. and don't get me wrong I don't think its so much going holistic or western. Its more of the approach that I think im getting disappointed about. Like the cancer book to me, yes it gives holistic options but its giving info on things that can interfere and affect our cancer dogs. Minus the holistic approach, so to me to have those studies or research dismissed and to not even consider.. "maybe" things will affect our CA patients differently..This is more of what I'm disappointed in.
And of course I know there is no set in stone approach, so I think because of that "motto" why not take a little step and think outside the box listen to options someone with more experience has been successful at and apply it or offer to apply it.
But I did have a good experience with my regular guy and the first vet I used for this new experience was awesome, so for me this was my first bad bout, it just really threw me off because I put so much time and money into trying to do right.
So I got a bit salty on how it was handled, Ill get over it and be better prepared and more specific in the future.
All in all my girls fine and we survived. In the end that's all that matters. Ill have a drink and take a breath. God still helped me!!
Angel Neka
7/4/2003-4/5/2016
2.5yr 3x cancer warrior survivor
Good dialogue everyone!
Kerren, the book is The Dog Cancer Survival Guide
by Dr Dressler and Dr. Ettinger.
I agree, it should be required reading.
Happy Hannah had a glorious additional bonus time of over one yr & two months after amp for osteo! She made me laugh everyday! Joined April's Angels after send off meal of steak, ice cream, M&Ms & deer poop!
What everyone said here is really accurate and also informative, especially what Michelle referenced that her vet "didn't know a lot about it" ....... Sometimes I think canine and feline cancers as a whole, are just starting to be researched better, and there are still too many unknowns. When my Maggie was diagnosed with hemangiosarcoma, I had no time to research and find treatment to help her, it was all so new, and knocked me off my feet, and my sweet Maggie died in a month and a half from it, which is actually a comfort to me.... She did not die on the table from her emergency surgery, and had a very good month and a half left with me. But I swore if it ever happened with another dog of mine, I would be better prepared. A year and a half later, my Polly was diagnosed with it. Talk about completely taking my feet out from underneath me........
So back into the ugly realm of this awful cancer, and as much as we successfully tried to beat this cancer, I still feel as if I let my Polly down, and did NOT do enough for her, and I especially did not learn enough to help her as much as I wanted to. Although in reality, I may have subconsciously given up due to the nature of her cancer, that we would NEVER be able to beat it and it would end the same as my Maggie. From my 2 experiences with both my girls, I still think there is still so much to learn, and I pray I NEVER have to deal with ugly hemangiosarcoma, or any awful cancer again..... But that is probably not likely......
I truly applaud you for going above and beyond to do all your research, and I do agree, WE are our best advocates for our pups and kitties. I can say though, that if and when this happens again, I have learned more than I did the time before......constant learning, and vigilance will hopefully payoff eventually.......
Love,
Bonnie, Angel Polly, Pearl, and Zuzu
I'm so glad to hear everyone get a chance to spit out some of their thoughts and frustrations.
Bcullom..u got wacked twice by this evil, uug.
My cat had a subcutaneous hemsngiosarcoma..I was fortunate I found so early at around 6yrs...had it removed agressivly with clean margins and never heard from it again...vet said it's good bcus they can invade and do major damage. ...we hav to advocate..know our pets from top to bottom. The vets only see them 1x/year...my girls was missed on regular exam until I mentioned it..
Thank you all
Angel Neka
7/4/2003-4/5/2016
2.5yr 3x cancer warrior survivor
Wow! What a great topic, thanks for bringing it up. Been meaning to comment but just now had a chance to sit down and hang out for a bit, it's been an insane week.
I have asked this question before to oncologists, because I totally understand your frustration and where you're coming from.
We want our vets to have all the answers and when they don't we would expect that a specialist would but the key word here is "specialist."
Whether it's an orthopedic doc or an oncologist or a behaviorist, specialists are schooled in one field, with one certain type of training that's standardized according to a board's criteria. Since our oncologists are trained in a westernized style of treating cancer, that's where their effort is spent in order to complete their education and get out and treat it. When they are finally out there in the field, it's got to be difficult to find the time to go outside that realm and learn about other styles of treating cancer, while staying current in their own field, getting published, etc
What it comes down to is this; we as pet parents need to encourage universities to integrate holistic-centric care into their curricula in order to train tomorrow's oncologists to consider both styles when treating patients. One way we can do that is by putting our financial support behind groups like the American Holistic Veterinary Medical Foundation (AHVMF).
We did an entire Tripawd Talk Radio show on this very subject, check it out:
Holistic and Integrative Health Care for Dogs and Cats
Join us for an informative discussion about holistic veterinary care with Dr. Richard Palmquist, DVM, Director of Integrative Health Services at Centinela Animal Hospital, Inc, Inglewood, California.
Dr. Richard Palmquist is President of the American Holistic Veterinary Medical Foundation (AHVMF). He is the aauthor of Releasing Your Pet's Hidden Health Potential (a comprehensive guide to utilizing the power of nutrition and holistic modalities such as acupuncture, muscle response testing, and stem cell therapy to help your pet live a long, healthy life).
Dr. Palmquist will discuss how to apply the principles of holistic care to helping three-legged amputee dogs and cats live longer, with a special focus on integrative care for coping with cancer.
We will also talk about his work with the AHVMF.org's research and education grants for veterinary integrative medicine, including research funding to study canine cancer, vaccine reform, feline behavior and other ailments.
Tripawds Founders Jim and Rene
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