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Ok, I know this subject is a sticky topic but I think its not just relevant but very important that we talk about the elephant in the room.... and for all I know I am the only person with a full size pachyderm squatting in my lounge but I think its something we should all be talking about. Pain relief. I know from my work with rabbits that good pain coverage can be the difference between an animal wanting to live or giving up. Its the quality of life issue at the heart of all the decisions we make in the interests of our treasured family members. I have serious pain related health issues myself so I havent just seen how fundamental the impact pain has on the psyche of the 'patient' but have personal experience of how pain can turn a saint into a psycho and the most irritating whistling cheerful chap can be reduced to thoughts of suicide.
A vet recently suggested that if my Bichon did not respond well to Meloxicam or Carprophen that he be given Tramadol. The same vet also spoke about amputation. So I went home thinking to myself that I had to choose between turning my dog into a junkie or cut off his leg..... now I know theres a whole bunch of biased tripods parents reading this but from where I was sat..... rather more was crumpled weeping in the corner like a child.... I have been offered tramadol and after watching 2 very important people almost die from it and every single other person I have personally met have all said that they would never take it again, once was one time too many..... and I am talking about people with cancer pain etc....
I have two points and then I am throwing the topic open: If I would rather jump off a bridge than touch the stuff how can I possibly give it to my dog... yeah I know they take chemo real good.... does not mean they will not be affected by narcotics in a detrimental way... tolerating one drug group proves nothing to me.... and the other thing is this: Opioids/narcotics have limited functions and how can they be better than a drug that both relieves pain AND is an anti-inflammatory? I know different species react differently but the next vet I saw.... just about the only thing she said that made sense was that Tram was the wrong drug for Roo. That it had very limited benefits and I agree...... I admit I have a serious dose of neurosis regarding tram which I believe to be justified.... I dont care how cheap the drug is.... what price life?
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Hi,
I can't really speak to Tramadol as my Tripawd is a kitty cat, and they are not typically prescribed Tram.
I would ask that you clarify the "cutting off his leg" and "biased tripod" comments. Please remember and keep in mind that many of us on this website had to amputate our cats or dogs limb because of a cancer diagnosis. We did not make that decision lightly. We did not think to ourselves "oh, he/she is limping, CUT THE LEG OFF!". Please do keep that in mind as it can be a very sensitive subject for a lot of us. We made the decision to amputate to try to give our loved one the best chance of beating cancer that we could.
Thanks,
Erica & Tripawd Kitty Jill
Jill is a 9-year-old tuxedo kitty. She was diagnosed with Osteosarcoma in June 2012 on her toe in her right hind leg. Her leg was amputated on 12/12/12 and she completed four rounds of chemo (2 of Carbo, 2 of Doxy) in April 2013. "Like" Jill's facebook page: https://www.fac.....tty?ref=hl Proud member of the WINTER WARRIORS!!!! Her blog can be read at http://jillsjou.....ipawds.com. xoxo
Stop putting your feelings ahead of your dogs suffering.
I can only assume that you are talking about arthritis as both the meds you mention (Meloxicam or Carprophen) are NSAIDs for arthritis pain relief. These are specific meds for specific issues. Tramidol is also used for arthritis pain management . Both do basically the same thing, but in wildly different ways. Both have issues and side affects. But if your dog is not healthy enough for NSAIDs, then Tramidol may be the only other option for pain management .
You dog doesn't know or care about 'being a junky'. It knows pain. And it knows that it is bad. How you can tie approved and tested medicine with social stigma's are again, your problem, not your dogs. It knows pain, and like everything other living thing it doesn't want to be in pain.
Finding the right medicine, and the right dose is trail and error. If Meloxicam or Rymidal didn't work there is Previcox, Deramaxx and some intramuscular medications. You will never cure arthritis, so for your dogs sake you should get over the fact that pain medications of some sort are going to be a part of your life.
Remember, its not about you, its about the animal in your care.
I'm not sure I'm entirely getting what your asking, but here are a few thoughts...
As far as the biased tripawd parents--most of us were in the same place you are at one point. Deciding between meds/pain management /amputation/etc. (And, FWIW, not everyone here DID elect amp)
Tramadol is pretty mild, really. It also has anti-anxiety properties, and can be used when NSAIDs cannot. Sam was on it at very low doseages for his entire post-amp life, and was never doped or drowsy in the slightest. CAN you sedate your dog to high heaven? Sure. CAN it be abused by people? Sure. Most things can. But can and do are two separate things. I guess I'm not sure why people you know died from tramadol? Are you talking about an opiate OD?
Your doctor may be wanting you to switch meds because some dogs can't take NSAIDs, or they may have stomach troubles on things like meloxicam or piroxicam. No one is asking you to give your dog meth or to inject him with ebola. Tramadol is a pretty common pain reliever, and GENERALLY well tolerated.
"Let us think the unthinkable, let us do the undoable, let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all."
-Douglas Adams, Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency
"May I recommend serenity to you? A life that is burdened with expectations is a heavy life. Its fruit is sorrow and disappointment. Learn to be one with the joy of the moment."
-Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul
I had a double hind limb amputee so I am not totally ignorant. That wasnt something I had a choice in so I am not insensitive either. I took on THREE disabled dogs so give me a little credit.
That is wonderful that you did those things for those dogs, no one is claiming that you are ignorant. I think we would just like some clarification by what you mean when you say we are "biased tripawd parents." It comes off as if you think we wanted to, as you put it, "cut off their legs"
Jill is a 9-year-old tuxedo kitty. She was diagnosed with Osteosarcoma in June 2012 on her toe in her right hind leg. Her leg was amputated on 12/12/12 and she completed four rounds of chemo (2 of Carbo, 2 of Doxy) in April 2013. "Like" Jill's facebook page: https://www.fac.....tty?ref=hl Proud member of the WINTER WARRIORS!!!! Her blog can be read at http://jillsjou.....ipawds.com. xoxo
I was curious about the safety of Tramadol also. My Cody has been on it for quite a while now. I dream of the day that she can be drug free but I don't know if that will happen. She doesn't seem to have any ill effects from it and it takes away the pain. I think that it is a more tolerable narcotic than something like OxyContin. I do know someone who uses it for their 20 year old (!) Chow mix's arthritis.
For the record, Tramadol is not a narcotic. Tramadol is a centrally acting analgesic. It produces similar effects to narcotics but with fewer side effects. Many complications that occur with it's use are due to it's contradictory interactions with certain other drugs.
Please keep in mind that we are not vets, nor is anyone that has responded yet. (Please correct me if I am wrong.) Since there is no clear veterinary question here, and this is turning into a discussion about people's opinions—which everyone is welcome to, and deserves respect for—we will now move this to the ongoing Ongoing Treatment forum.
Tripawds Founders Jim and Rene
tripawds.com | tripawds.org | bemoredog.net | triday.pet
Daisy is an amputee due to arthritis. Her left front elbow joint was damaged by the arthritis so bad that there was destruction to the surrounding bone. She also has severe arthritis in her hips. So much so that there is no cartlidge left.
She has recently begun having more mobility issues. She has been on either Deramaxx or Meloxicam daily for inflammation and pain management since she was diagnosed with the arthritis at age 5 (she's now almost 9 y.o.). About two weeks ago my vet added Tramadol twice/day for additional pain relief as the NSAID's are no longer providing the type of pain relief she needs.
She is on a low dose. Only 50 mg/twice a day. Daisy is around 80 lbs.
So far we have not had any issues with side effects and she is getting around ALOT better. My vet said that Tram does not sedate dogs like narcotics do -- I was concerned that it would make her all loopy and want to sleep all the time.
For us Tram is literally a lifesaver. The pain and destruction from her arthritis is what I will lose her to.
Marla and Daisy
P.S. That is awesome that you take in specially abled dogs!
My Two Tripawds...Biscuit 
and Spirit Daisy 
The 50 mg/2x a day is what Sam was on--and he was about that size (although he lost quite a bit of weight by the time he died). He also was never loopy or doped.
FWIW, tramadol is more like some antidepressants than it is like morphine, to put it in sort of lay terms. Having been on morphine/narcotics, and having been on anti-depressants, and having used tramadol...I can tell you that from a personal experience, too. 
"Let us think the unthinkable, let us do the undoable, let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all."
-Douglas Adams, Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency
"May I recommend serenity to you? A life that is burdened with expectations is a heavy life. Its fruit is sorrow and disappointment. Learn to be one with the joy of the moment."
-Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul
tjmcbipper said
Stop putting your feelings ahead of your dogs suffering.I can only assume that you are talking about arthritis as both the meds you mention (Meloxicam or Carprophen) are NSAIDs for arthritis pain relief. These are specific meds for specific issues. Tramidol is also used for arthritis pain management . Both do basically the same thing, but in wildly different ways. Both have issues and side affects. But if your dog is not healthy enough for NSAIDs, then Tramidol may be the only other option for pain management .
You dog doesn't know or care about 'being a junky'. It knows pain. And it knows that it is bad. How you can tie approved and tested medicine with social stigma's are again, your problem, not your dogs. It knows pain, and like everything other living thing it doesn't want to be in pain.
Finding the right medicine, and the right dose is trail and error. If Meloxicam or Rymidal didn't work there is Previcox, Deramaxx and some intramuscular medications. You will never cure arthritis, so for your dogs sake you should get over the fact that pain medications of some sort are going to be a part of your life.
Remember, its not about you, its about the animal in your care.
I think you said some exceptionally spiteful things right there and as they have been allowed to remain, I shall not. If you think watching loved ones almost die and not wanting to put your family member in that situation is 'me thinking of myself' then boy you need to go back and read what I wrote again.
Its an opioid, there are warnings being issued to drug companies world wide for underplaying the addictiveness and dangerousness of that drug and my comments were in direct relation to what I felt was a devastating consult. Think of myself? I am the sole carer of three dogs with pretty intense needs so of course I have to think of myself.... AFTER I think of them... which is why I have not gone into hospital to sort out my spine....
I spend £50,000 rescuing 300 rabbits over 5 years and after 20 years in social care my body is totally wrecked so DONT YOU DARE tell me I dont care.
I came here for support for Roo and me because he was already basically a tripod and now his good back leg has gone.... Of course I am devastated and trying to get the best possible care and advice for him.
That wont be here and it wont be from you.
Ribbons! This is such an emotional journey for everyone.
And the "coldness" of a computer sometimes can give "tonality" that can sound harsher that it's intended sometimes. You have TREMENDOUS CREATIVITY....I wish somene knew hw to make a computer dialogue express the "comuter voice" we her in our heads when we read posts always have a "kind tone". Maybe you can figure that out for us!
I'm really, really sorry this "discussion" has caused hurt feelings for someone who cares so very deeply for her animals...animals of all species and "different abilities". You have given love and care to animals who otherwise would not have known what compassion ever felt like.
Havng been on this forum for around nine months now, I can assure you there are a zillion different opinions, a zillion different was of showing care and cncern. They even allow people who can't type worth a poot on here!! Heck, when I first started here, Ihad a few moments where my feelings were hurt too. But I stayed focused on two FACTS!
Everyone here is coming from a "well intentioned place".....some of us express it differently than others...but it's always well intended!
Everyone here shares one important common denomi atore.....the deep love for their furbabies.....so that makes us all family.
And just like some families, there are always differing opinions, different persnalities, etc......but there's always a bond of f love.
You HAVE come to the right place and I hope you give us a chance to prove it, okay? Maybe we can all just focus on helpingnyou get Ribbons through whatever decision you make for him. Perhaps we can put "sticky topics" aside for now and jist help you, as you have helped us with so many creative ides. I don't think everyone saw your blog and allofyour posts before this one, which would help everyone uderstand more of who you are.
AND YOU KOW WHAT??? We need to see more pictures of your adorable RIBBONS!! That would put a smile on everyone's face and we could all start fresh, okay?? PLEASE
With care in my heart foryou and Ribbons and with gratitude for all the lives you have touched,
Sally and Happy Hannah
Happy Hannah had a glorious additional bonus time of over one yr & two months after amp for osteo! She made me laugh everyday! Joined April's Angels after send off meal of steak, ice cream, M&Ms & deer poop!
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