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I am so hoping this will ring a bell with someone and I might get a clue what else to do for my sweet Shan. Shan is an 8-yr. old mixed breed (maybe some Shepherd - truly an undefined exotic beauty), 65 pound spayed female. She was diagnosed with osteosarcoma early September, front left leg amputated September 23, first chemo (carboplatin) 10/2, 2nd chemo 10/23. Through out all of this, Shan has been her normal exuberant crazy self, she is very athletic and fit and continues to be even on 3 legs, and she eats/drinks/eliminates totally normally. But she has had repeated long periods of very rapid breathing (sometimes panting but usually closed mouth/breathing not labored or wheezing, just fast) - respiration rate 100+/minute and the spells have lasted as long as 24 hours at a time. High doses of pain killer (Tramadol and Rimadyl) and muscle relaxants seem to have no effect - suspect that the Tramadol may even aggravate the condition. She's not anemic, had new lung Xrays today and no abnormality detected, doesn't react with pain/flinching to any area of her body being examined or pressure put on her. Onco says no evidence of tumor spread to other long bones or spine. Shan does not have a history of being anxious - no separation or thunderstorm panics - but Onco gave me Xanax today suspecting anxiety - gave her 1 mg with no effect.
Shan is not getting much sleep with this rapid breathing (and neither am I), but seems totally normal otherwise. 3 vets can find nothing to explain this (asked the Just Answer Vet too - great, fast reply, but none of those ideas have panned out). I started her on Power Mushrooms right after surgery - any one seen any allergic reaction with those? Any other thoughts on what this might be or what I might try. I am not sure if she is in pain and just totally disguising it, but since the pain meds haven't helped, I think there is something else going on I just can't figure out. Pain or not, she is certainly not relaxed and comfortable and I so want that for her.
My Mom is having open heart surgery next week and I will have to be away from my sick dog more to attend to Mom - I am desperately hoping to find a way to get Shan more comfortable before that. Any thoughts/suggestions would be appreciated.
I hate to make suggestions when three vets haven't come up with anything, but there are some who do not tolerate the pain medications well. If I recall correctly, Trouble was on tramadol & remadyl about 2 weeks after amputation and then the tramadol was stopped. She took remadyl a bit longer, but then went to an as needed basis.
I always kept some of both on hand in case she seemed to be in pain or got sore, but gave them only when she needed something to make her more comfortable. Unless there is a specific reason for Shan being on the meds still, I would begin to wean her off them and see if it helps.
Shanna & Spirit Trouble ~ Trouble gained her wings 3/16/2011, a 27 1/2 month cancer survivor, tail wagging. RIP sweetheart, you are my heart and soul. Run free at Rainbow Bridge.
The November Five - Spirits Max, Cherry, Tika, Trouble & Nova. 11/2008 - 3/2013 An era ends as Queen Nova crossed the Bridge.
So, so sorry--we've ben dealing with fast breathing also, but not like this. I think if it were me (and please make sure this is OK with your vet first) I'd take her off all meds and see what happens. Then if it slows down, you could slowly introduce one at a time. I'm talking to my vet tonight about Lily's breathing-if I find out anything new, I'll let you know.
Hope this calms down very soon.
Joan and Lily
Our beautiful Lily was diagnosed with osteosarcoma in her front leg on 12/14/11 at age 8 and had amp on 12/16/11. She completed 5 rounds of carbo. She was so brave and kicked cancer's butt daily! She lived life fully for 4 years, 3 months, and 15 days after her amp. My angel is a warrior princess. I miss her so much.
Welcome to Tripawds bigmutts, and thank you from the bottom of our hearts for your extremely generous gift to the community. We are deeply touched by your kindness.
We hope we can help you and Shan get some rest. I'm glad to hear that lung mets have been ruled out.
First of all, keep in mind that we're not vets OK? So anything we say here please discuss with your vet.
Things I would think about include:
Do these spells happen at the end of an active day? Oftentimes the day's activity tends to catch up with Tripawds and they spend the rest of the evening recuperating. I was also missing a front leg and that happened to me a lot.
Is the weather warm? Warm weather can cause heavier breathing than normal. That happens to a lot of pups.
The drugs could be the culprit. We've never heard of anyone having a reaction to Power Mushrooms but many many dogs here react to Tramadol with excessive panting, whining, crying, etc. I like Joan's suggestions; clear it with your vet to cut out all medications and supplements then through the process of elimination add each one back in over the course of a couple of weeks to see if you can find the cause.
I hope this helps somehow. Let us know what you decide to do, and good luck next week with your Mom. We'll be here if you want to vent or just keep us posted on things OK?
Tripawds Founders Jim and Rene
tripawds.com | tripawds.org | bemoredog.net | triday.pet
This is an amazing site to have such thoughtful responses so quickly - thank you. I have been consulting vets - Shan has now been seen by an emergency room vet (one night when I went into total panic over the very rapid respiration), my regular vet, and her oncologist - so I am definitely not discounting professional consultation and advice. However, I am thankful to get some other dog pawrent advice/info because nothing my vets have told me or given me has resulted in a happier Shan. You have each told me something useful - hugapit and joantroj, thank you for your suggestions because my vets have sort of pooh-poohed the notion that Tramadol may be part of the trouble vs. part of the solution, but I live with this girl and I swear her breathing often gets faster after Tramadol rather than more relaxed. It seems that most dogs tolerate Tramadol well, but I am strongly feeling it is not the drug of choice for Shan. Oncologist did approve taking her off the Tramadol and muscle relaxants so we will see. If nothing else, I want to rule out any drug induced anxiety that may be contributing to the rapid breathing. Glad to know I am not the only one who might suspect this issue. Jerry - glad to know you have not heard reports of anyone having trouble with Power Mushrooms. I don't really suspect this supplement (I am taking it myself) but it's the one other new thing in Shan's intake along with prescription drugs/chemo so I just wanted to check. And, thank you for the info about Tripawds and activity - I really do think this is the crux of the trouble after observing my girl. I have noticed that at the end of the day, Shan does a little wobble thing in the back end like she's really tired and that is not obvious in the morning. Her respiratory rate is higher than normal almost all the time now but it definitely does get really rapid in the evening/night. The onco vet tech told me that she just didn't think that Shan was worn out or straining muscles (I asked cuz my kid's a rowdy girl even at 8 yrs old) even though Shan has made a radical shift in how she does everything because the vet's office only sees that with amputees who are overweight or out of shape. But that doesn't make sense to me - surely any being that has to so radically change his/her movement could tire faster or have sore muscles!?! Jerry, I have wondered if I should restrict Shan more. Onco said he was putting no physical restrictions on her and I have been hesitant to do that because I really want my baby to enjoy herself and she is all about the running around. Do you think the pain/tiredness is limiting enough to keep the kid from really hurting herself or should I be a little stricter "mommy"?
I asked the onco yesterday about acupuncture or chiro and he said neither is a problem during chemo so I think that is what I am going to try next. Seems like either/both may provide some help for either anxiety or pain - most other causes for fast breathing have been ruled out. There is vet fairly near me that includes those in his practice - difficulty is trying to get appointments and help before I am so challenged with Mom in the hospital next week. I am also wondering if I should look into PT - it's expensive but available around here so I might see.
At the very least I feel a little better knowing that I'm not crazy and I'm not alone. In these really scary places in life, it is a real blessing to find community. Thank-you all!
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Welcome to Tripawds- sorry I'm late to your post.
A couple things to add- my experience with tramadol is really dog dependent. Tri-pug Maggie freaked out on the stuff- she would sleep for about half an hour, then she would spend the next 10 hours or so anxious and seeing or hearing things. I have another pug who was on the same dose for about 2 weeks and there was no noticeable side affects.
You are about a month out from the amp, right? Why still on the pain meds? Is Shan still having pain from the surgery? A months seems like kind of along time to be on tram, Maggie was off them by the two week mark.
And I would think that some monitoring of her activity is in order a month out. Dogs do have to re-learn balance and are using muscles differently. It took Maggie about 6 months to work up to walking half the distance she could before her amp. Then again, she was a pug, and tended toward the slug side of the activity spectrum!
Also- check out the Gear Blog here. There are lots of good exercise and rehab ideas there. Maybe you can go to a couple PT sessions and then develop a home program.
And, when you get a chance we would love to see a picture or two of your girl.
I hope you can figure out what is going on soon.
Karen and the pugapalooza
krun15 - thanks for the info! We are about a month out from amp and Shan was weaned off of pain meds initially about 10 days post op. She had some of the rapid breathing spells post op on meds and off both and onco didn't really take my concerns too seriously. Then about a week after first chemo, Shan started fast breathing that went for 18 hours and kept escalating. Couldn't get answer from onco or regular vet and finally 1 AM I took her to emergency hospital because breaths were faster than I could count and I got scared. E-vet diagnosed back pain from having to adjust her gait, shot her up with muscle relaxers (she could have warned me that she would be sending me home alone with 65 pounds of dead weight of dog to get into the house - what a nightmare!) and prescribed Tram, Rimadyl, and muscle relaxers. Onco and regular vet OKed next biz day, but I have seen no improvement. With vet approval, I have stopped pain meds again. He told me to try Xanax and I saw no improvement with that. What I have noticed though is although the breathing is still about 50 - 60/min. today, Shan is not as rowdy and is actually sleeping some. I am wondering if the pain meds were hyping her up and masking the pain enough that she was overdoing it. At least at this point she does not appear to be in imminent danger and some of my worst fears have been ruled out. I will definitely check out the rehab ideas (thanks - hadn't found that yet!) and I think I do need to help my girl dial it down a few notches until she has built up the right muscles and the coordination she needs. I'm not sure what the fast breathing is all about but after reading some of the info here I am more and more suspecting pain due to over exertion and drug induced anxiety.
I think you're onto something here. Between the Tramadol and the activity, this could be what's causing it. A quivering back leg is generally a sign of muscle weakness, especially so soon after surgery. We're not vets, so this is just what we've seen from our own dogs here.
Reactions to tramadol definitely vary from dog to dog. Some vets give it out like it's benign but in reality, we've seen how wildly differently it can affect dogs in our own pack. When I had surgery, it didn't do anything at all to me. But when Tripawds Spokespup Wyatt Ray had surgery and went on Tramadol, it turned him into a panting, pacing, crazy dog. Just a few hours after we stopped it, he calmed down.
One month out of surgery is not a long time. At that point, most dogs still need to get used to moving their bodies in different ways and using different muscles. While they can get around just fine, in general most of them need time to build up strength.
I hope this is what's causing the rapid breathing. Please keep us posted on how things go OK?
Tripawds Founders Jim and Rene
tripawds.com | tripawds.org | bemoredog.net | triday.pet
Just a quick update to say that Shan is moving slower and breathing better! Thanks to some nudges from folks here to get me looking in the right direction, I am fairly sure now that Shan was going into some repeated bouts of pain from overexertion after the amputation and reacting to that with highly accelerated breathing/panting. I can't be sure but I now believe that Shan is one of those who doesn't react well to Tramadol. (Note to anyone concerned about using Tramadol, I have another dog that has taken the drug long-term for severe arthritis pain and it has been a big help to her so I think it is just an individual thing.) I think the Tramadol was not only exacerbating the rapid breathing, but may have been masking some necessary pain signals
to get my little wild one to slow down just a bit after the amp. After several days now drug free, my baby is not racing around any more but sleeping a lot more and her respiration rate is almost back to normal. Now that I can see her really move without medication mask, it is obvious that she needs some help to build her muscles and coordination to properly compensate for the loss of a front leg. (I admit I am still a bit aggravated that the onco and his vet tech both acted like I was crazy to think my dog may need some help to make the physical adjustment after amputation but maybe you need to live with a Tripawd to really get it.) I have been giving her massages which seem to help, but after looking through the rehab section here on the site I felt sure that I needed some professional PT help and wasn't sure how to get it. Amazing how lovely things just drop in sometimes - good friend called me and told me about a local PT who did wonders for her dog after the dog had a stroke and I now have an appointment with Angie on Monday. My Mom is having surgery on Tuesday so this is going to be a bit of a juggling act (did I mention I have a full time job?!?), Shan is holding up her end of the bargain (fighting the cancer while continuing to be my best friend) and her end is way harder than mine, so I'm sure I'll find a way to work in the PT. In the meantime, what a relief that my girl is now able to rest comfortably and so am I. I will update info after some PT just in case anyone else ever finds herself struggling to understanding similar symptoms.
Much thanks to the thoughtful responses that were not only useful but very reassuring. There are some pretty cool people at this site
So happy that Shan is doing better This is a wonderful family -thank heavens for everyone here. Sending pawsitive thoughts that Shan continues doing so well.
Joan and Lily
Our beautiful Lily was diagnosed with osteosarcoma in her front leg on 12/14/11 at age 8 and had amp on 12/16/11. She completed 5 rounds of carbo. She was so brave and kicked cancer's butt daily! She lived life fully for 4 years, 3 months, and 15 days after her amp. My angel is a warrior princess. I miss her so much.
That is a positive update. Thank you for sharing. I'm so glad things are falling into place for you guys. It is so frustrating when you know something is wrong and you can't get the folks who are suppose to know these things to understand what you are telling them.
Shanna & Spirit Trouble ~ Trouble gained her wings 3/16/2011, a 27 1/2 month cancer survivor, tail wagging. RIP sweetheart, you are my heart and soul. Run free at Rainbow Bridge.
The November Five - Spirits Max, Cherry, Tika, Trouble & Nova. 11/2008 - 3/2013 An era ends as Queen Nova crossed the Bridge.
Yessss! I'm just now catching up on things and am so glad to hear things are looking up!
I agree, a vet really has to live with a Tripawd (and have gone through recovery) to truly understand what pawrents go through. I'm so happy to hear that she's doing better.
We would love to hear more about her PT session. Feel free to start a new topic in "Hopping Around" so that folks can follow along.
Give Shan a big hug from all of us!
Tripawds Founders Jim and Rene
tripawds.com | tripawds.org | bemoredog.net | triday.pet
Hooray for a good update! Hope things continue to improve even more.
Keep us posted,
Jackie, Angel Abby's mom
Abby: Aug 1, 2009 – Jan 10, 2012. Our beautiful rescue pup lived LARGE with osteosarcoma for 15 months – half her way-too-short life. I think our "halflistic" approach (mixing traditional meds + supplements) helped her thrive. (PM me for details. I'm happy to help.) She had lung mets for over a year. They took her from us in the end, but they cannot take her spirit! She will live forever in our hearts. She loved the beach and giving kisses and going to In-N-Out for a Flying Dutchman. Tripawds blog, and a more detailed blog here. Please also check out my novel, What the Dog Ate. Now also in paperback! Purchase it at Amazon via Tripawds and help support Tripawds!
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