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I know there's a lot of good training sites out there and feel free to redirect me to those, but really all I'm looking for is a little personal experience from others to offer hope that Gerry really can be weaned off of always getting treats for following commands. We're taking a CGC class because it'd be nice to make him a full-fledged therapy dog, since he has so much natural talent for bonding with strangers, even when their bedridden and such. But trying to wean him off getting a treat for every single thing has been pretty frustrating. If he doesn't get a treat, it throws him off. He thinks he did the wrong thing and will cycle through his favorite tricks, trying to guess what will get him a treat. I've made a little progress, where I can usually get him to follow up to three commands for a single treat before he gets confused/frustrated. Still, if I don't have treats on me, I' m lucky if he follows even one command.
It's definitely with good reason that the CGC test requires the dog to follow commands without getting treats. The issue that comes up when I take Gerry to the nursing home we visit (which didn't require certification) is that if I use treats to make him heel well, not pull, and leave stuff he finds on the floor alone, then he focuses too much on me and not enough on the residents. But getting by without treats to get him to listen requires constant vigilance and a very tight grip on the leash, which is possible, but not ideal.
Anybody make it out the other end and can give me some hope that Gerry will get this eventually, if I'm patient and consistent? That's what the trainers have told me in the past.
Gerry has been a tripawd since 12/16/2009.
He was a shelter dog with a mysterious past and an irrepairable knee injury.
Videos and pics of Gerry's pawesomeness can be found at: http://gerry.tripawds.com
When someone finds that magical formula, I'll buy it!
Good luck Gerry!
Comet - 1999 to 2011
She departed us unexpectedly January 23, 2011 at the age of 12 1/2.
She was born with a deformed front leg and a tripawd all of her life.
I've been taking my Zephyr (a Monkeydog) to agility because she is a little ADD and "doesn't hear" me if I don't work with her. What the trainer has us do is give food and praise for everything, then do two things with praise both times but food only at the end. Then three, then four. And take it in baby steps. If they "backslide," then take a step backwards and start over. She also doesn't let us say "no" or anything negative when they don't follow commands. She basically just says "lets try again" and then when they get it right, tons of praise, then treat. Obedience is definitely different than agility, but same principle. Reward with lots of praise and a treat, and then gradually reduce the treats.
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~ ~ Rio ~ ~ |
I agree with RiosMom... also, you need to vary the food rewards. You need to put the behaviors on variable reinforcement...meaning no treats after every command. Don't get stuck in a rut of treating every correct behavior. Ask for two behaviors, treat or three behaviors and then treat or one behavior and then treat, etc. Making the reinforcement(food) more variable makes the behaviors stronger, in the end.
Tracy, Maggie's Mom
Maggie was amputated for soft tissue sarcoma 10-20-09
Maggie lost her battle with kidney disease on 8-24-13
Hey Gerry, I think we're related! My Mom and Dad learned that I really love food, so they thought that treats were the way to get me to behave. For a while I did work for treats, but whenever they didn't have any on them, I would go on strike and ignore them.
One day, shortly after they took me to a new skewl with this alpha dog trainer, they went cold turkey on me. No more treats for anything. Just lots of love and praise. They said something about "rebuilding" our relationship, which I don't get but I think it meant that they were reprogramming me.
It took a long time, like a whole summer, but I finally did what they asked without expecting food. It wasn't easy for either of us and it was like I had to start kindergarten all over again, but by going cold turkey, it finally clicked that I wasn't going to get fed for doing something as simple as sitting. And I didn't want to starve either!
Now, I get treats occasionally and they're sooooo good. But the days of expecting them just for being good are over.
Sssh, don't tell them, but I think we have a better relationship now because of it.
Wyatt Ray Dawg . . . The Tripawds Leg-A-Cy Continues!
Read all about my adventures at my Tripawds Blog
Thanks!!! Especially for the more specific instructions on weaning off treats. I'm the type that needs more specific advice than "just do it gradually," which was all I was getting from the trainers I've worked with.
I also think I've realized - and the input from all of you helped me to recognize it - that my last dog (Yoda) had me trained too well not to try to reward him with pets and scratches. He would pull away if we were training, as if to say, "No, Mom, I'm working. None of that while I'm working." Gerry, though he seems a little disappointed so far when I've tried substituting pets for treats (randomly and occasionally), I think it could work very well with him to help break the treat dependence. Gerry loves petting way more than Yoda ever did, so I think using more of that as reinforcement could work. He just has to get used to it and stop looking for treats in my hand, so he can enjoy it. 
Hopefully we won't have to go cold turkey as far as treats, but a last resort is good to have in mind!
More input is welcome too, but you all got me to the point where at least I'm not contemplating giving up on the CGC test just yet!
Gerry has been a tripawd since 12/16/2009.
He was a shelter dog with a mysterious past and an irrepairable knee injury.
Videos and pics of Gerry's pawesomeness can be found at: http://gerry.tripawds.com
Definitely don't give up! Gerry will get it eventually. Consistence, patience, positive attitude. You'll get there!
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~ ~ Rio ~ ~ |
I have had good results using a clicker with Julian. Sometimes he gets a treat, sometimes just a click, and lots of times just a pat on the head or a "Good boy!". It seems to work well and now I only use treats for new things.
Pam
I have clicker trained my dogs for both rally obedience and agility and used to teach agility classes to people. From where I come from, a click = treat. Otherwise, you loose the power of the clicker 
But I know there may be other schools of thought on the subject of clicker training.
Are you keeping your treats hidden in a treat bag or in your pocket? Are they always in your hand? The other thing you could do to start to wean him more is NOT treat from you but run to another "pre-loaded" place where you have treats. I used to do that when I was training a dog to sequence agility obstacles together....do the obstacles and then run to a spot where I left the treat bag(dog didn't know where I left it) and treat from another place other than from my hand. Make sense?
Good luck! You'll get it!
Tracy, Maggie's Mom
Maggie was amputated for soft tissue sarcoma 10-20-09
Maggie lost her battle with kidney disease on 8-24-13
I did try the clicker for a class once, but my thumb dexterity apparently sucks - haha!
The pre-loaded idea sounds great. I'll work that into our training too.
Gerry has been a tripawd since 12/16/2009.
He was a shelter dog with a mysterious past and an irrepairable knee injury.
Videos and pics of Gerry's pawesomeness can be found at: http://gerry.tripawds.com
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