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Frozen and/or Dehydrated Raw
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Oakland, CA
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30 May 2012 - 11:37 pm
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I have read tons of stuff on cancer diets, and there seems to be no real consensus as to whether raw is safe for dogs with a compromised immune system - the debate seems somewhat split down the middle, with folks on both sides of the issue listing good reasons to support their position.

What about if the food is frozen first?  In an old post, Jerry mentioned that freezing makes bacteria dormant, but doesn't kill them...this may be a silly question, but what happens when that food is thawed and/or eaten?  The bacteria are back and active?

What about dehydration?  Does that kill the bacteria?

Are there concerns other than the bacteria?  I think I saw somewhere that there might be a chance that a compromised dog might have a harder time processing the food, but that digestive enzymes should help with that.  Anything else?

I know a lot of people around here have done raw while their dogs are in treatment - has anyone ever suffered any ill effects?

We've been doing Honest Kitchen and haven't had any problems so far...we are adding in various canned foods to up the meat (Wellness Core, Wellness 95% meat, Instinct), but I would really prefer to use fresh meat rather than canned if I can swing in. (I feel like we are doing something similar to Maggie's diet?)

There are so many things to consider! way-confused

 

Alex & Holly

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31 May 2012 - 1:26 am
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Hi Holly!

Dehydrating can killl bacteria and/or prevent multipliying, but some can live through it if you dont dehydrate enough.

But! How are you planing to dehydrate the meat? One way is by temperature (i.e. I dehydrated hot dogs for treats on 150°C, and it took hours!!), and the other way I can think of atm is drying by breeze of air (im sorry, i cant think of better word atm).

Drying by temperature is easy, and its basically cooking, since you have to use high temp (higher than 100°C that is). And have in mind that anyway most bacteria die at temperatures higher than 70°C, so you might as well cook the meat in the water.

Drying by air is much more difficult and it takes a lot of time, so I dont think its worth it, unless you normally dry meat for yourself. Drying by air would probably need some salt too.

 

Nice puppy you got there!

Is he a dutchy?

Portage Lake, Maine
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31 May 2012 - 6:12 am
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Hi there,

Yes, I use Honest Kitchen premixes - primarily Thrive, Embark, Zeal, Love and Preference - as those are the mixes lowest in carbs.  Then to drive the carbs down more, I add Primal Raw Grinds(beef,chicken or turkey).  I mix up a batch that will last several days for my two dogs... I mix 3 cups dry to 2 cups meat(raw).  For Preference, though, that has NO dehydrated meat in it, so I mix that 2:1.  (meat is 2, mix is 1).  That can be mixed 1:1 as well but I go with the heaviest meat content.

I have never had an issue with Maggie eating raw...that I know of, that is! big-blink

Tracy, Maggie's Mom

Maggie was amputated for soft tissue sarcoma 10-20-09

Maggie lost her battle with kidney disease on 8-24-13

http://maggie.t.....t-24-2013/

The Rainbow Bridge

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31 May 2012 - 7:36 am
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Great questions!

Honest Kitchen is an awesome, safe dehdrated raw food to try when you're going through chemo (as far as I know). Their website has a lot of great info about why it's safe.

True raw eating during chemo is discouraged by vets because IF there is bacteria in the food, a dog will have a harder time fighting off the resulting illness. More progressive oncologists will say that it's fine to go back to raw after chemo, others will still discourage it. To be safe during treatment, you can always lightly sear the meat before feeding it to her. That will kill off any surface bacteria.

When frozen food is thawed out, bacteria will start to grow. It doesn't matter if there was bacteria there before the food was frozen, it still happen, that's just life, things rot.

If I was going through chemo, I would wait to do raw, only because if I got sick, at least we would know it was from the chemo and not the food. It's a lot easier to nail down the cause of illness and treat it that way.

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Portage Lake, Maine
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31 May 2012 - 8:05 am
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Maggie never had chemo...so guess why she hasn't had an issue with raw.

FWIW, I believe there have been more recalls on kibble due to bacteria, etc., than ever with rawwinker

 

Tracy, Maggie's Mom

Maggie was amputated for soft tissue sarcoma 10-20-09

Maggie lost her battle with kidney disease on 8-24-13

http://maggie.t.....t-24-2013/

Austin, TX
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31 May 2012 - 9:42 am
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I don't know how safe raw is for dogs with a compromised immune system.  What I do know is that different types of bacteria can stand different things - I currently work in a neuroscience lab, but have a decent background in endocrinology and animal nutrition (majored in both for my master's degree), so maybe I can help a bit.  Freezing and dehydrating will kill a lot of bacteria, but there are still some that will survive those processes - really, only cooking will kill almost everything (and it will kill everything harmful so long as you cook it at temperatures above 160 F).  A combination of two processes really, really does the trick, if you're looking for the best way.

With freezing, if you can possibly do this, freezing the meat at a temperature lower than what normal freezers can handle will help.  Around -80 degrees C will kill a lot more.  The only way I can see this happening for normal folks is to have a cooler and use dry ice.  Dry ice will reach that temperature in the cooler plus the release of CO2 (which is all dry ice is) will actually help kill more bacteria than just normal freezing alone.  This works really great for bones, which shouldn't be cooked.

I unfortunately do not know very much about how dehydrating affects bacteria survival, but like I said above, if you combine it with another method, I think you should be ok.

 

However...if there's any concern, I would just cook everything and just not worry about it...which defeats the purpose of raw. :/  

Jack - adopted with a crooked leg at 4 months old, managed for six years, and now much-happier Tripawd as of 5/24/2012!

Portage Lake, Maine
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31 May 2012 - 10:26 am
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Here's some raw and cooked cancer diets from Lew Olsen:

http://www.b-na.....ncer-diet/

http://www.b-na.....th-cancer/

 

Tracy, Maggie's Mom

Maggie was amputated for soft tissue sarcoma 10-20-09

Maggie lost her battle with kidney disease on 8-24-13

http://maggie.t.....t-24-2013/

In your heart, where I belong.
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31 May 2012 - 7:47 pm
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Dakota also did not have chemo (he did not have OSA) and I didn't put him on any special diet right away. However, I did change him to a grain-free kibble. Then several months ago I moved him over to Honest Kitchen. And I must sing the praises of Tracy because I knew how she fed Maggie and I sent her at least 40,000 PMs that she graciously answered, guiding me to what I'm doing now. Which is a little bit of everything. Sometimes I mix the Honest Kitchen with a good kibble. But mostly I'm mixing it with raw meats. The dog who doesn't like food now likes food. Embark is really the only one D loves, though he likes Preference ok. The one with the quinoa in it--oh my dog don't even let him see the box! He hates that one!

I'm buying ground beef and turkey to mix in. I will branch out, but this is what I can do right now in terms of commitment.

The bulldog monkeybutt, the one who would eat a shingle if you put jam on it, of course loves it all. I hoped Honest Kitchen would cut down on her poop production...alas, it has not. She still poops about 4 to 6 times a day (yes, yes she does) but at least it's easy to clean up.

My only complaint about Honest Kitchen is how it gets all over the walls with the slobs I have. Anyone else have that problem, or am I the only one with slobs?

Shari

From abandoned puppy to Tripawd Warrior Dude, Dakota became one of the 2011 February Furballs due to STS. Our incredibly sweet friend lived with grace and dignity till he impulsively raced over the Bridge on 12-15-12.

Dakota's thoughtful and erudite blog is at http://shari.tr.....pawds.com/

Portage Lake, Maine
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31 May 2012 - 8:02 pm
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Shari, you just made me smile!!!  So happy Dakota likes it - well, except the Thrive(quinoa one!)...don't worry though, that's not a favorite of Maggie's either but she does still eat it.  I don't have slobs in either of my two so can't help ya' there!  On a very rare occasion I might see a piece of dried up Honest Kitchen on the wall by the bowls but that's about it.  How are you mixing it?  Heavy on meat side?  Do you notice less stools with different premixes?  How are you mixing Preference?  My guess is you'd get less stool on that one..especially if you mixed it 2:1(meat/mix).

Tracy, Maggie's Mom

Maggie was amputated for soft tissue sarcoma 10-20-09

Maggie lost her battle with kidney disease on 8-24-13

http://maggie.t.....t-24-2013/

In your heart, where I belong.
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31 May 2012 - 8:11 pm
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Tracy, I asked a question here a few months ago about how long it takes for dogs to digest. I mentioned that Evelyn poops all the time. Dr. Pam said (and I think this is a direct quote), "Bullies are big poopers." So no matter how I mix it, she craps her brains out. That's about the nicest way I can say it. She poops about every time she sets foot out of the house. She will poop at 7 a.m. and at 11 p.m and every time in between. (Yesterday she went out and pooped; 30 minutes later my husband and I walked her to the mailbox and he asked why I was taking a plastic bag. Let's just say he lost the bet.)

I do mix the food so that it's pretty thick, but they snort and flick it all over the wall. It's ok. It could be worse. It could be poop, for instance.

Shari

From abandoned puppy to Tripawd Warrior Dude, Dakota became one of the 2011 February Furballs due to STS. Our incredibly sweet friend lived with grace and dignity till he impulsively raced over the Bridge on 12-15-12.

Dakota's thoughtful and erudite blog is at http://shari.tr.....pawds.com/

Portage Lake, Maine
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31 May 2012 - 8:19 pm
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Um, yeah!  I'd rather clean up food off the walls any day!!! winker

Tracy

Maggie was amputated for soft tissue sarcoma 10-20-09

Maggie lost her battle with kidney disease on 8-24-13

http://maggie.t.....t-24-2013/

Sebastopol, CA
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31 May 2012 - 11:22 pm
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I feed our girl Honest Kitchen Embark with Orijen kibble. I mixed in raw ground beef or turkey for a while but swapped to canned Evo 95%. I'm going to start to include fresh raw again. She did fine with the Embark through her chemo. She loooves her nosh. She's waking me up earlier every morning to get her first meal!

joanne & TWP lylee

http://lyleegir.....ipawds.com

Portage Lake, Maine
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1 June 2012 - 5:26 am
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Good to hear Joanne!!!  Orijen is a great kibble...I use it for training treats every now and then.  It's really high in fat, so I have to be careful with overusing it - packs on the pounds.

 

Tracy, Maggie's Mom

Maggie was amputated for soft tissue sarcoma 10-20-09

Maggie lost her battle with kidney disease on 8-24-13

http://maggie.t.....t-24-2013/

Wherever the Wind Takes Me, Dude

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1 June 2012 - 7:59 am
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Dakota Dawg said

My only complaint about Honest Kitchen is how it gets all over the walls with the slobs I have. Anyone else have that problem, or am I the only one with slobs?

Shari

I'm a slob dawg too! Every couple of days my people have to scrape the walls clean where I eat, I get that stuff everywhere and it sticks to the wall REAL good. Yum!

Wyatt Ray Dawg . . . The Tripawds Leg-A-Cy Continues!

Read all about my adventures at my Tripawds Blog

In your heart, where I belong.
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1 June 2012 - 8:06 am
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Wyatt, I figured you would decorate the walls. I've seen you eat and you are a very kinetic eater! Are tripawds who do this a special category of slob, something like a "slawb?"

Evelyn can stay busy for a very long time cleaning the walls after a meal. I try to beat her to it because there's just something that feels wrong about letting her blissfully and slowly lick the wall with her eyes closed.

Shari

From abandoned puppy to Tripawd Warrior Dude, Dakota became one of the 2011 February Furballs due to STS. Our incredibly sweet friend lived with grace and dignity till he impulsively raced over the Bridge on 12-15-12.

Dakota's thoughtful and erudite blog is at http://shari.tr.....pawds.com/

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